Rescue 4

Capttomo · Jun 18, 2023

BCR said:
FDNY gives the low bidder the specs on how they want the rig built and with what. The Seagrave fdny gets is not the Seagrave everyone else gets. They all have their fair share of issues. It all comes down to spec’.

Absolutely, the spec can make a huge difference.

jloonz · Jun 19, 2023

God save the rescue

Disp51 · Jun 19, 2023

Capttomo said:
And the Pierce rigs have plenty of issues as well. Ask Miami Dade, Fort Lauderdale, and many others. They have all gotten away from Pierce. One of the problems with Pierce is they have purposely altered or manufactured cab and chassis parts that are proprietary and can only be purchased from Pierce. Example, let’s say you need a replacement power steering pump, or radiator, etc. many other fire apparatus manufacturers use common parts that are available through local auto parts or diesel truck repair dealers. Often the Pierce part is only available from Pierce. And the local Pierce dealers aren’t going to stock a huge inventory of parts. So it goes to the dealer and sits for 2-3 weeks awaiting a part to be shipped from Wisconsin. Crazy ! Pierce builds a great rig as far as fit and finish. But their service sucks. And their over reliance on advanced electronics such as the “command zone” incorporated into a majority of their pumpers and aerials often finds dealers in a position of finding certified fire apparatus technicians to fix them. No matter how well built the Rigs are and how they look, it all comes down to service. The wear and tear, duty cycling of aerial devices, road hazards, salt (winter) and engine/ pump start ups per month of FDNY rigs is challenging to any fire apparatus manufacturer. I think Seagrave has been dealing with FDNY long enough that they know the customer and build rigs best suited for The FDNY operating environment over many of its competitors. History and time appears to lend validity to this. Only the Mack’s were better, the American LaFrances were a disaster, the E-one prototypes built for FDNY in the 90’s didn’t cut it, and the Ferraras, well I’ll stop there. The Pierce Rescues for FDNY were well built but so were the Saulsbury’s. FDNY approached Alan Saulsbury about building pumpers and Aerials. Like Pierce he stayed away and he concentrated on specialty units before he sold the company to Federal Signal. Pumpers and Aerial devices have so many more systems and moving parts than a Rescue or Haz Mat unit. And the shear numbers, often 60-80 over 3-4 years makes for a tremendous investment in a nearby warranty center with the prospect that they could be outbid and lose the contract in 4 years or so. So Seagrave has the experience, warranty infrastructure and customer relationship with the FDNY products - and it appears to currrently be the best choice for engine, tower ladders, and straight sticks while the SOC pieces remain open to a variety of vendors. JMO

There was an old saying "Built like a Mack Truck" for a good reason!

FDNY704 · Jun 21, 2023

We need Salisbury Back

Bulldog · Jun 21, 2023

FDNY704 said:
We need Salisbury Back

Them for the rescues and Mack for the engines and ladders!

1261Truckie · Jun 22, 2023

FDNY704 said:
We need Salisbury Back

I completely agree BUT in today's world of single source/sole source vendor, would we ever see the likes of Mack/Salisbury again?

NYBravest82 · Jun 23, 2023

1261Truckie said:
I completely agree BUT in today's world of single source/sole source vendor, would we ever see the likes of Mack/Salisbury again?

Wasn't MACK bought by Volvo anyway? So wouldn't it be a MACK/Volvo/Salisbury?

Lebby · Jun 23, 2023

NYBravest82 said:
Wasn't MACK bought by Volvo anyway? So wouldn't it be a MACK/Volvo/Salisbury?

No, most of these corporations are owned by some larger conglomeration. For example KME, Spartan, and E-One are all owned by REV.

Capttomo · Jun 23, 2023

NYBravest82 said:
Wasn't MACK bought by Volvo anyway? So wouldn't it be a MACK/Volvo/Salisbury?

Saulsbury was Sold around 2001 to Federal Signal who then sold it to E One who then were absorbed into the REV group. The Stainless steel bodies built by REV today are no where near the quality, fit, finish and craftsmanship of the original Saulsbury products.

memorymaster · Jun 23, 2023

Remember when Mack & Renault merged and produced some cab forward or over trucks? Hence, the French Poodle in lieu of Bulldog.

GFD70 · Jun 27, 2023

There is no "perfect" manufacturer. Alot of the problems tie back to the specs. The salesman will give you anything you want, it's up to the truck committee to do their homework and know what will and won't work.

I know the FDNY is extremely diligent in their specs, but that also leads to reduced options. For example, the requirement for a stainless cab eliminates most manufacturers. Also, most dealers want no part of their warranty requirements. Ferrara and Seagrave both had factory-direct service centers in NJ that cut out the dealers from having to handle the warranty work. I've heard the Ferrara site either closed or will be closing since the FDNY is back to Seagrave now.

As far as build times go, 3 years seems to be the average wait time for the major manufacturers right now. I predict that most manufacturers will add a sales option to "cut" the assembly lines for an added fee. I don't see the build times getting shorter anytime soon.

Capttomo · Jun 27, 2023

GFD70 said:
There is no "perfect" manufacturer. Alot of the problems tie back to the specs. The salesman will give you anything you want, it's up to the truck committee to do their homework and know what will and won't work.

I know the FDNY is extremely diligent in their specs, but that also leads to reduced options. For example, the requirement for a stainless cab eliminates most manufacturers. Also, most dealers want no part of their warranty requirements. Ferrara and Seagrave both had factory-direct service centers in NJ that cut out the dealers from having to handle the warranty work. I've heard the Ferrara site either closed or will be closing since the FDNY is back to Seagrave now.

As far as build times go, 3 years seems to be the average wait time for the major manufacturers right now. I predict that most manufacturers will add a sales option to "cut" the assembly lines for an added fee. I don't see the build times getting shorter anytime soon.

Well stated and very true. One of the options a few of the manufacturers are offering is a limited option truck. In other words you can select from a pump type and size, select from several different tank sizes and a few other options but you pretty much have to stick with a limited set of cab and body configurations. Almost a cookie cutter type truck. This allows departments that can’t wait the three years to get their order in about half the time without a lot of customization. Works for some department who order a rig once every 10-15 years. And a few where a sudden emergency presents itself and they need a rig asap.

Captain784 · Jun 27, 2023

I am an Old Firemen, but I still say the Mack's were the best apparatus around. Case in point in the Mid. 1970s I was detailed to Satellite 1 of the old Super Pumper System from time to time. The spare for the Satellites back then was the Mack rig shown below. A beautiful 1954 Mack. it ran very well and pimped like a demon. How many of today rigs will be running to fires after over 25 years of rough use.
Captain Bob Rainey FDNY Engine 26 retired.

airbusboeing · Jun 27, 2023

Didn't the late 80s mack engines converted to foam carriers last until 2015

soda-acid · Jun 27, 2023

Captain784 said:
I am an Old Firemen, but I still say the Mack's were the best apparatus around. Case in point in the Mid. 1970s I was detailed to Satellite 1 of the old Super Pumper System from time to time. The spare for the Satellites back then was the Mack rig shown below. A beautiful 1954 Mack. it ran very well and pimped like a demon. How many of today rigs will be running to fires after over 25 years of rough use.
Captain Bob Rainey FDNY Engine 26 retired.View attachment 36203

Those old Macks didn't have half of what is on a rig today. Standard transmission, no power steering, no electronics (except the radio), no diesel emissions controls, manual pump panel, etc. And has been mentioned the quality no matter who builds the rig is not what it used to be.

mkeit · Jun 27, 2023

Also, today's Macks are Volvos.

Bulldog · Jun 27, 2023

soda-acid said:
Those old Macks didn't have half of what is on a rig today. Standard transmission, no power steering, no electronics (except the radio), no diesel emissions controls, manual pump panel, etc. And has been mentioned the quality no matter who builds the rig is not what it used to be.

That's exactly the issue with most of the new apparatus and the question boils down to who's fault is it? Is it the fire departments, the government, ISO or?

Captain784 · Jul 4, 2023

I will always love Mack apparatus. My all-time favorite rigs were FDNY Rescue Companys "R" and "B" Macks. Photos below. Captain Bob Rainey FDNY Engine 26 retired

FDNY R-1 Responding from old qtrs. Mack R in 1980s.jpg

nfd2004 · Jul 4, 2023

Captain784 said:
I will always love Mack apparatus. My all-time favorite rigs were FDNY Rescue Companys "R" and "B" Macks. Photos below. Captain Bob Rainey FDNY Engine 26 retiredView attachment 36405 View attachment 36406

My first invite to ride FDNYs Rescue 2 in 1968, I rode in an FDNY Mack Rescue as seen in the picture on the right (above).
That rig was gasoline powered and had a standard transmission.

Shortly after, Rescue 2 got a new rig as pictured in the photo on the left.
If I remember correctly, it had one of the first diesel operated engine for the FDNY rather than gasoline and I think it was one of the first to have an automatic transmission.

Dan R · Jul 5, 2023

Does anybody know of any R-Model Mack Rescue that has been saved and restored? It doesn't matter the department. I never seem to see any of them at the antique fire apparatus shows that I go to.