11-21-10 1716 hrs 2nd Alarm box 269 ( JFK Airport )

L 147

L 147

Joined
Jun 2, 2010
Messages
654
2nd alarm for the JFK airport box
They have a plane that lost an engine and is dumping fuel at this time. Waiting for a runway to be readied.

Breaking News Alert
The New York Times
Sun, November 21, 2010 -- 5:42 PM ET
-----

Emergency Units Responding to Reports of Fire on Plane at Kennedy Airport

More than 100 firefighters are at John F. Kennedy Airport in
Queens awaiting the arrival of a plane that is said to be on
fire, according to the fire department.

The fire department received a call shortly after 5 p.m. that
an airborne plane was on fire. In response, 25 units and 106
members were dispatched the airport.

"We are there on standby waiting for it to land," said a
spokesman for the fire department. "Unclear if it's the
engine or a wing."

PA Police stated plane has landed FDNY is not required

 
Once again, FDNY denied an escort by a certain PAPD Lieutenant who was named on the air.
 
The last thing I'd want to do is cause a fuss by tinkling in someone else's pond, but from my experience (see my signature block), losing one engine is not much of a problem . . . as long as it's not on fire.  When I was flying, it wasn't all that unusual, either.  I'll admit, it eased our minds a little to know that all the crash trucks would be out there on the runway when we got home . . . usually with an escort from an Air Rescue Service bird, but we weren't very upset, anyway.  Most of today's aircraft are so overpowered, they can fly on one engine, as long as they're already airborne.  It's during the takeoff phase that you really don't want to lose an engine.

Now . . . as for those crash trucks . . . FDNY doesn't own any. It's PAPD's show out on the runways, and I'm sure they can handle it just fine.  The biggest reason for the FDNY 2nd Alarm is to handle STRUCTURE fires in case the aircraft doesn't make it down safely and crashes to the ground in or near the airport.  So not getting an escort onto airport property shouldn't be (IMHO) a problem.  Different situation:  if there's a STRUCTURE fire on the airport, PAPD is less likely to be able to handle it themselves, and refusing access to FDNY doesn't make sense.
 
The Company I'm assigned to (Engine 4) responds to airport alerts at Norfolk Int'l on a somewhat routine basis for planes having problems, mainly inbound planes. Ourselves and the Norfolk Fire Dept. stage outside airport property. This is just me but, I prefer to stay off the property and keep an eye to the sky in case the plane does wreck that way we do not become the victims. We have a good relationship with the airport and I know if we're needed they'll want us quick.
 
Ray is 100 % correct. FDNY job for a runway call is to support the PAPD Crash Units. They do not belong on any airport runways because they are not qualify to drive on the taxi ways or even the runways of an airport.
They will get lost out there at JFK.

Even in the military, its a seperate test before you can drive on the runway. Also crash trucks travel at 60 MPH in less then a minute, FAA Requirement, FDNY rigs do not.

FDNY is to help resupply the crash trucks who only have a few minutes, less then 3 minutes, of water on board.
 
If I were to fly today, I'd be a LOT more afraid of birds than terrorists.  They can shut ALL of your engines down in a flash . . . and most of the time you don't get a miracle like Sully did . . . not to take anything away from his phenomenal performance.
 
Ray.... in regard to your reply # 3 above....in the NYC area the FDNY response to Aircraft incidents involves much more than just supplying water to the PAPD Crash Units....i have been to several crashes & or Fires both on & off the runways......true you do not go out on or across a runway without an escort ever....but the function of FDNY Ladder & Rescue Cos is to Ladder the plane or remains of such..... gain entry & conduct searches & facilitate handline operations if neccesary.......the interagency cooperation was much better in the pre-911 era than post.....i agree we should not be in the possible path of a crashing plane but also we should not be in quarters because of a lack of comminication then be delayed after the shit hits the fan....staging at 269 is fine but not to be notified or delayed due to a power play borders on criminal.... this is why for as long as i was on the JOB we dril on the runways & on the planes...seconds count.
 
Two well-written posts by Raybrag and 68jk09. Gives great insight to both sides of the field. Always happy to read such knowledgeable articles on a subject that I would otherwise be in the dark about.

Thanks!
 
One of the BCs or Divs, possibly Div13 reported that BC51 with an engine & truck would be going on the runway with PAPD, then no escort.
 
Chief jk:    Isn't it amazing how a thread can take on a life of its own . . .

I think you may have made a slight error . . . I never said FDNY's only task was to supply water to the crash trucks (that was Atlas), but your points are well taken.  As for water supply . . . I have no idea how PAPD does it.  I can only speak to the Air Force way of doing it years ago (and it may well be different today), but the crash fleet would always have at least one large water tanker that had a dual purpose:  resupply to the crash trucks and foaming the runway when that was required.  Larger bases (and those whose primary aircraft were cargo planes or bombers) might have more than one tanker.  

I also never meant to suggest that FDNY would not have a role if the aircraft did in fact crash.  Again going back to my experience with the Air Force . . . the base structural units would always respond if a crash did occur . . . I imagine just as FDNY would.  In the two instances of actual crashes that occurred (on base) that I was unfortunate enough to see, mutual aid was also summoned from the surrounding towns to assist.  In my day (remember, that was when fire engines had open cabs, and the members would ride on the back step), the crash and structure sections of an Air Force fire protection unit were kept at arms length from one another, and the structure units would not ever enter onto the ramps, taxiways or runways unless invited by the crash people.  (Sound familiar?) I have the impression from seeing the huge new European-style fire houses on military bases (with both crash and structural units) that things have changed since I wore the uniform.  In my day, no military fire department would have had a heavy rescue or even a ladder company, but they all seem to now . . . and no one had ever heard of a HazMat unit, but everybody's got one or more now.  

The only purpose of my original post was to suggest that losing an engine is not necessarily the dire situation that the general public seems to think it is.  I've got to admit, though that if I were flying a big new 757 or other passenger aircraft with a full load of passengers and lost one of my two engines, I'd ask for help, too.
 
Is a Second Alram run down for a crash box the same as a normal Second Alarm. I heard that 2 Satellite's are sent in? Was just curious.
 
Airport crash box = 2nd Alarm, additional Battalion for Staging, HazMat (Squad responds as HazTec), Foam Unit (usually 294 for JFK, 260 for LGA), additional Rescue, MSU, Hosewagon, 2 additional Satellites, Marine company and seasonal Marine company (Marine 3 for JFK, Marine 4 for LGA) if available.  Units respond to PAPD firehouses for staging, and PAPD will escort onto runway if needed.  It's usually established over the air what kind of aircraft is coming in, what the emergency is, and whether or not they are dumping fuel.
 
The FDNY response to JFK & LGA crash boxes (#269/#37) are automatic second alarm assignment of engine & ladder companies (8 & 5), but a third alarm response for chiefs & special units.  FDNY policy calls for them to setup to resupply the crash trucks with water. These crash trucks travel at 60 mph with in a minute from a dead stop, FAA requirement. They only carry enough water for anywhere between 90 seconds to 3 minutes (max) of operation. Runways are no longer foamed before a landing.
PAPD uses AFFF foam, for years FDNY did not have a large amount of AFFF foam on hand. So FDNY stopped sending their foam units on these boxes.
Why crash firefighters do not want ?nearby? departments on the field is because the average firefighter is not aware of where they can safely cut into an aircraft in case there is a crash. Military aircraft are marked, civilian aircraft are not. Remember there are oxygen lines running along the cabin of these birds besides electrical lines, & fuel or oil lines. The batteries are also dangerous.  In cases with aircraft on fire there is always a good chance of firefighters being faced with a Class D fire. 
I was an Air Force Firefighter for a while at a base that was home to over 100 bombers & about 30 tankers back in the mid-60?s. The base also housed an air guard unit with fighters, a civilian airport, besides commercial air traffic. We had four stations & three of these stations housed both structure & crash units. Back then a crash truck could carry a crew of 5, but we were lucky to have two on board.  The second guy would be used to operate a hand line & also perform rescue operations.  The driver operated under truck nozzles, bumper nozzles, & roof turrets all from the driver?s seat.  These trucks were equipped with two heavy duty booster lines.  Yes, you can use these vehicles to fight a structure fire too. There were equipped with regular firefighting equipment.  There was one vehicle that just had CO2 on board as an extinguishing agent. Pickup trucks carried Purple-K in a pressurized tank.  We had a light duty rescue truck, manned by either one or two guys. Structure pumpers ran with 1 to 3 guys if you were lucky. Sometimes only one.  Our main station was ?L? shaped. Five crash bays & three structure bays. The other stations had either three or four bays each.  We had no Ladder rigs. I think Wright-Patterson AFB near Dayton, Ohio was the first to get a ladder truck. Today, bases have quints as ladder units. Rescue trucks are medium size, & they even have Haz-mat rigs.  One of our first jobs was to cut the battery line & to safe guard weapon controls & ejection seat triggers if we had an aircraft incident.
We played around with using an aircraft deicer. It?s a snorkel that can discharge a chemical to stop an aircraft from icing. We had used it a few times for hanger fires & rescue operations. If we received mutual aid from the city department, (paid dept.) it was only to help resupply the crash trucks with water.  The city never came out to the base to learn how to drive or operate in an airport environment. I have been out driving the taxi-ways & runways of JFK, you can easily make a wrong turn onto an active runway.  You cannot cross a taxiway or a runway without the tower?s permission.  Crash rigs in some cases have a radio in them so that they can communicate with the tower.
 
Atlas...Your post about the USAF brought back memories.  I also served in Crash & Rescue in the early 1960s.  I have attached some photos showing the 0-6 Cardox discharging CO2 and also the 011A.

We have been working on some of my old slides & photos from those days - thought it would be fun to include them on the website.

Mike
USAFcomposite.jpg


The photos look small to me so here's a link:
http://fdnysbravest.com/USAFcomposite.jpg
 
We had Crash - 11-A;  11-B; 0-6, & R-2A
          Structure - 750; 530A; & 530B, beside several tankers.

If I remember correctly, there were 3 or 4 P-6's for patrol of the flight line or stand by.
The Chief & Asst Chief's also had pick-ups.

The ANG had a '500' Structure pumper & there crash truck was a '10-A'

They were so old fashion I did not enjoy working in the ANG station at all.

My base was deactivated & I went overseas for a year on remote duty. We did not even have
a fire truck on the base. It was all portable extinguishers. When I came back, I was assigned
back to SAC & saw the P-4's, but never worked on one.
 
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