Nozzles

[vbcapt]

For you FDNY fellas on the job and/or retired: What is the brand/model of 2 1/2 smooth bore nozzle you are currently using?

 

[69 METS]

For the entire time that I was on the job, we used the model 1442 by Akron Brass. It is a 2.5" shutoff with a 1 1/8" smoothbore 'mainstream tip' as well as a 1/2" 'overhaul tip'. The approximate flow with this nozzle was 250 GPM.

I've been out of the job for seven years so I can't say for sure that they are still using the same brand and model. I do know that they still use smoothbore nozzles on their 1.75" and 2.5" attack lines for structural firefighting.

http://akronbrass.com/uploadedFiles/Products/Nozzles/Shutoffs_Play%20Pipes_Tips.pdf

 

[nfd2004]

"69Mets", I remember seeing those jobs knocked down so quickly with those smooth bore nozzles. I remember taking some classes at "The Rock" put on by the NYC Firefighters Burn Unit, and hearing experienced guys talk about the advantage of using smooth bore vs Fog Stream. By far, the FDNYs smooth bore got my vote. I saw those Smooth Bore Nozzles put out a lot of fire.

 

[69 METS]

"69Mets", I remember seeing those jobs knocked down so quickly with those smooth bore nozzles. I remember taking some classes at "The Rock" put on by the NYC Firefighters Burn Unit, and hearing experienced guys talk about the advantage of using smooth bore vs Fog Stream. By far, the FDNYs smooth bore got my vote. I saw those Smooth Bore Nozzles put out a lot of fire.

When I first came on the job, we were using smooth bores, but were also 'testing' the FT-2 which was an 'automatic nozzle'. A guy in my company had gotten bad steam burns from using the FT-2 right before I came to the company from proby school. One of the problems with the FT-2 was that if it was getting less than its required 100psi at the tip, a spring controlled baffle would 'automatically' adjust so the reach of the straight stream was the same even though the GPM's were well below what was required. The guy on the nozzle had to be aware if it suddenly became too easy to control the line, this indicated that there was a kink, a burst length, debris in the nozzle or the MPO was not supplying the correct pressure. The result was a tremendous amount of steam which would cook the nozzleman (now known as the nozzle firefighter) as well as the inability of the line to knock down a heavy fire condition due to the reduced GPM's. With the smooth bore you quickly knew if you weren't getting proper nozzle pressure because you couldn't hit the ceiling with the stream. The FT-2's steam hazard was increased by the fact that we were not wearing hoods, were using 3/4 length boots and open gauntlet gardening gloves (stamped 'N.Y.F.D.' on the back of the gauntlet).

Smooth bore nozzles have greater penetration due to the solid stream as opposed to the broken straight stream provided by a fog nozzle. It's also easier to handle as it requires 50psi at the tip as opposed to the 100psi or 75psi required by most fog nozzles.

 

[jbendick]

  The FT-2 was a package deal along with 1 3/4 hose (1 1/2 butts). Also introduced at that time was Rapid Water(aka Slippery Water). All this was supposed to give you more water than a 2 1/2. In 1972 a pilot program was started to test the usefulness of R.W. In the Bx it was E73 and Sq.2 every time the Eng. stretched a R.W line, the Sq.was to take a back up line. It was not a great success with the companies. Every week a progress report was sent downtown. Like a lot of things, this was not taken seriously by the brothers. They would just say it was alright.  A couple of years later this would come back and bit us in the ass. When using R.W. if you didn't use the right nozzle or was not aware that MPO was giving you R.W. you would have quite a job handling the nob. At one job, it just about picked up one of the biggest guys in the Sq. off the floor. We had stretched off our own rig and unknown to us we were being supplied by 94 Eng. with R.W.  The R.W would make the water cohesive and slick  where ever it hit the object and it would be covered by this slime.  The floors would be like a sliding pond. We eventully stopped using R.W. because of this and  the price of the RW. But the damage was done and in May of 1974 all Eng. and Sq. companies in the 6th Div. lost their 6th man. More on the FT-2 Later  As always feel free to correct me.

 

[69 METS]

By the time I got on the job (1981) the Rapid Water was no longer being used. The FT-2's had earned the reputation of contributing to a lot of the men getting steam burns. The senior guys in my house told me in no uncertain terms the first tour that I worked, " You see that thing with the yellow bumper? NEVER stretch off that bed and always bring the smooth bore with you if we're gonna stretch off someone else's rig."

 

[tbendick]

I still run into some rigs that have one bed with the FT2, not sure of thier SOPs but we remove it and use our own nob when stretching from them.

The only line that everyone uses with the FT2 is the Trash line on the front bumper of the rig.

 

[68jk09]

There was also the "TaskForceTip" which was black & bigger than the FT-2....it had the usual fog positions & straight stream but it also had a 7 degree attack position which was basically a straight stream with just a slight 7 deg cone to push heat & smoke ahead......it also had a flush position that allowed you to flush out small objects without removing the nozzle.......several units used to bore out the 15/16 ths smooth bore to 1 1/8 "   this with an old style 8" brass tip & the proper pressure would provide a tremendous knock down power.....if a pistol grip with the proper bore was added it became  really long though......one time we were second due and the nozzleman was carrying it to the pumper we were  going to stretch from & a guy in the Truck said "what are you carrying a Halligan?".........getting back to serious stuff.....in every Engine & Squad that i was assigned to as an Officer.......we always had the yellow FT-2 on the secondary bed.....the reason was that it was my policy that the length on the front bumper was only used for rubbish close to the rig.......any vehicle accident & or vehicle fire .........2 or more lengths would be stretched off the secondary bed with the FT-2........the proper line placement is to have enough lengths to circle the vehicle to protect a trapped occupant or effectively extinguish a fire depending on the wind direction & the unexpected........50 ft is not enough.......also as stated above any serious Engine that is going to stretch from your secondary bed should arrive at your backstep with their own nozzle. ..... in certain circumstances at a good cellar fire or store fire.... once it was knocked down & not lifting ...i would have an FT-2 brought in & bring the line back to the point of entry & steps retraced in fog position to rapidly clear it out & cool it down completely..... I also used the FT-2 as a tip on the stang to flood manholes or cool underground vaults if requested by Con-Ed....this maintains a safe distance & prevents Con-Ed from saying "can you get closer or hit it from here"..... sometime familiarity breeds contempt .....they work with it all the time but sometimes they get hurt...the stang keeps the guys at a safe distance.

 

[Bigandy]

I remember seeing a video from a recent fire in Manhattan. I guess it was the nozzle-man from another engine, but he ran down the street to the first due engine and replaced that engine's nozzle with his and they than proceeded to stretch the second line. Could this have been one of those situations where a certain company desires to use a specific nozzle?

 

[68jk09]

The nozzle is a very important part of the overall picture......years ago units used a variety of different nozzles.....today basically the JOB does not give the leeway to be to selective.....generally it is between the smooth bore or fog issued by the FDNY.......most prefer smooth bore as first choice ......as stated above fog has it's uses too......a serious Engine brings their own nozzle since they know it is in proper working order & well maintained .......they would replace the other units with theirs regardless of the type the other company had on.....also another important reason for bringing your own nozzle is ...if you arrive at the other rig you are going to stretch from & both beds already have lines off.... the 2 original nozzles will be gone........bringing your own covers all bases.

 

[rdm258]

WOW,never thought of that. Guess why that is why FDNY is the Best and sets the standards for other Dept's to follow. Here in Tennessee if I had a dollar for all the times I heard, this isn't NY. I would be able to retire. I try to explain to them, I understand that and yes we run with 3-4 man Engine's and 2-3 on The Truck's, which all carry water. I am going to suggest that nozzle idea and add it to our RIT Kit so will be brought up to the scene. I can already here the whys, I am sure Engine 2's is fine. Well thank you FDNY for all Long tradition and with all those fire's in those years, including some of the most spectacular and saddest fire's, it just seems as generation's come and go, the FDNY is always learning and bringing new ideas to the table. Just go to some national fire related conventions and a keynote speaker will be from FDNY,will learn.
  PS I still use a trick that I learned from a FF from Queens about pulling your ear out of the hood or lift jacket to expose outer skin and if you sizzle, GET OUT!!!!!! Thanks--John Canino

 

[Bigandy]

Hey thanks fellas for the information.

 

[nfd2004]

WOW,never thought of that. Guess why that is why FDNY is the Best and sets the standards for other Dept's to follow. Here in Tennessee if I had a dollar for all the times I heard, this isn't NY. I would be able to retire. I try to explain to them, I understand that and yes we run with 3-4 man Engine's and 2-3 on The Truck's, which all carry water. I am going to suggest that nozzle idea and add it to our RIT Kit so will be brought up to the scene. I can already here the whys, I am sure Engine 2's is fine. Well thank you FDNY for all Long tradition and with all those fire's in those years, including some of the most spectacular and saddest fire's, it just seems as generation's come and go, the FDNY is always learning and bringing new ideas to the table. Just go to some national fire related conventions and a keynote speaker will be from FDNY,will learn.
   PS I still use a trick that I learned from a FF from Queens about pulling your ear out of the hood or lift jacket to expose outer skin and if you sizzle, GET OUT!!!!!! Thanks--John Canino

  Rob, I would hear the same thing. But somehow after a while some of the ideas caught on. "Just keep plugging at it". I've heard this isn't NY too. But when they see it actually work, then it's "why didn't we think of that". My favorite example is the "saw on a sling". It was like trying to sell the Brooklyn Bridge. But when it caught on, they all bought it. Now, there's just no other way.

 

[CFDMarshal]

Rob, it is not just a "up north, down south" thing. I changed departments in the state and it was like I stepped back into 1970! Gentle consistent persistence! LDH was easy, the struggle was convincing the locals that a PPV was not designed to Suck Air OUT! Had to change the setup on scene three or four times a call. Finally had state fire instructor come in and give a class on ventilation! BINGO!

By the way, we now are in the 21st century but we try to maintain the traditions that work. Smooth bore nozzles is one of those traditions that have their place.