Snorkel

RCL

Joined
Jul 11, 2022
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279
Yes, and that’s probably an issue. Although if I’m remembering correctly the FDNY doesn’t actually follow the NFPA regs religiously? Like isn’t the tower ladder baskets non-compliant for instance, because the FDNY disagrees with what’s the best practice/layout?
Most departments don't for 1 reason or another. It's probably next to impossible to be completely compliant on everything. You go for the big things like age or numbers of equipment.

I don't know too much about the FDNY baskets other then they come from Seagrave/Aerialscope. I know FDNY writes their specs and I presume they are NFPA certed. Whoever wins the bid would make sure of that. They'd tell them before hand hey we can't do this because of NFPA, we can do this instead. Or what do you want to do
I doubt that Seagrave or any manufacturer or dealer would allow any department to make a non compliant change to any of their units before it left their possession. Simply because the liability would come back on them if something were to happen. Now any department can go above what is required. You just can't go below the minimum that NFPA says. The other problem is warranty. You do something that causes issues, and you may be on your own.
Layouts are a different story. You can you can lay out your unit however you want. As long as your within the limits of that unit and NFPA. I know of at least 1 dept that ran a 75 foot quint that had basic pump panel controls on the turntable pedestal. Came from Eone that way.
bet Pierce could build something custom like the European unit
Any of the US makers can, if they wanted to. For whatever the reason, no one has wanted to. At least as far as I know.
 
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Aug 14, 2020
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RCL

Joined
Jul 11, 2022
Messages
279
Back in the late '60s or early '70s, Calavar promoted their Firebird 150 (see image) which had a 150 foot reach, and FDNY tried two 144 foot Mack/Magirus "High Ladders" (https://www.nycfire.net/forums/threads/high-ladders.6008/). Neither were successful. If I'm not mistaken, these were the tallest aerial appliances ever in service in the US.

View attachment 38450
I remember seeing pictures of 1 of the hiladder units. I also love the look of the cab on that era snorkel. Everything is boxy today.
 
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I seem to remember seeing a Firebird responding on Northern Blvd just over the QNS / Nassau line late '70s / early '80s ....was it Manhasset / Lakeville VFD ?
 
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Jun 22, 2007
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Many years ago, I made a buff/fire apparatus photo trip to Philly.

I remember stopping at the firehouse with Engine 8 and Ladder 2 at the time and they had a snorkel in their quarters.
I think I got a picture of it, either this one or maybe an earlier one somewhere in my archives.

Also, if I remember correctly at the time they told me the department had two of these snorkels.
 
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Jun 27, 2007
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Chicago has 4 snorkels on their active roster, they are 55' units assigned as the second piece of the squads. Squad 1 @ E-42 ,Squad 2 @ E-91, Squad 5 @ E-116 and Squad 7@ O'Hare.
 
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Many years ago, I made a buff/fire apparatus photo trip to Philly.

I remember stopping at the firehouse with Engine 8 and Ladder 2 at the time and they had a snorkel in their quarters.
I think I got a picture of it, either this one or maybe an earlier one somewhere in my archives.

Also, if I remember correctly at the time they told me the department had two of these snorkels.
Early 80's trip.
 

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I know FDNY writes their specs and I presume they are NFPA certed. Whoever wins the bid would make sure of that. They'd tell them before hand hey we can't do this because of NFPA, we can do this instead. Or what do you want to do
I doubt that Seagrave or any manufacturer or dealer would allow any department to make a non compliant change to any of their units before it left their possession. Simply because the liability would come back on them if something were to happen. Now any department can go above what is required. You just can't go below the minimum that NFPA says.
NFPA is only a guideline/industry standard, it is not law. NFPA is highly suggested, and most departments follow it to a tee. It would be up to individual states to adopt the guidelines as a statue for their respective state. When it come to litigation that is a separate issue. Since NFPA is the primary industry standard for firefighting, it could come back to hurt a FD that does not follow it if following it could have/would have prevented the issue being litigated. The primary laws that FDs need to follow in regards to safety (in the workplace) from from OSHA (both at the federal and state levels).

An example of where the FDNY does not follow NFPA, the chevron stripes on the back of the trucks, the new Rescue 1 and Squad 8 are the only main line apparatus in the FDNY with the rear chevrons. Also traditional Bourke eye-shields are not NFPA compliant (I have seen newer version that offer large coverage and are now considered NFPA compliant (not sure if they are in use though).
 

RCL

Joined
Jul 11, 2022
Messages
279
NFPA is only a guideline/industry standard, it is not law. NFPA is highly suggested, and most departments follow it to a tee. It would be up to individual states to adopt the guidelines as a statue for their respective state. When it come to litigation that is a separate issue. Since NFPA is the primary industry standard for firefighting, it could come back to hurt a FD that does not follow it if following it could have/would have prevented the issue being litigated. The primary laws that FDs need to follow in regards to safety (in the workplace) from from OSHA (both at the federal and state levels).

An example of where the FDNY does not follow NFPA, the chevron stripes on the back of the trucks, the new Rescue 1 and Squad 8 are the only main line apparatus in the FDNY with the rear chevrons. Also traditional Bourke eye-shields are not NFPA compliant (I have seen newer version that offer large coverage and are now considered NFPA compliant (not sure if they are in use though).
This is true. And also the way I understood it. Legally it's better to follow it and even some insurance carriers require it. Some things like the chevrons aren't that big of a deal. Now try putting a non NFPA airpak bracket in a cab and see what happens. Ask me how I know.

Btw, you do know who writes the majority of the NFPA standards right?
 
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Jan 17, 2010
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I think this is the Philadelphia Snorkel historical rundown. Started in the late 1960s with two Hi-Rangers (IHC chassis). Then came the one Calavar Firebird (125' / FWD chassis). Next came two Pitmans ( 85' / Oshkosh chassis. The Mack Tower Ladder era started in the late 1970s with a single rear axle 75'. Two more Mack Tower Ladders with dual rear axles came along in the mid 1980s. Two snorkels on American LaFrance chassis came along in the early 1980s and replaced the well worn Hi-Ramgers. In the mid 1990s one of the Pitman / Oshkosh units was rehabbed with a glider kit by Pierce. In the late 1990s the devices off the two American LaFrance units were installed onto new KME chassis. They were the last two snorkels acquired by the PFD. In the early2000s two KME Ladder Towers were built for Philadelphia but rejected. These were followed by two different KME ladder towers that were accepted one of which is still assigned to busy Tower Ladder 6 in West Philadelphia. Most recently four Seagrave Tower Ladders were acquired and a fifth Seagrave Tower Ladder is on order. The half century of snorkels in the Philadelphia Fire Department ended with the recent acquisition of the Seagrave Tower Ladders.
 
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Jul 28, 2014
Messages
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I think this is the Philadelphia Snorkel historical rundown. Started in the late 1960s with two Hi-Rangers (IHC chassis). Then came the one Calavar Firebird (125' / FWD chassis). Next came two Pitmans ( 85' / Oshkosh chassis. The Mack Tower Ladder era started in the late 1970s with a single rear axle 75'. Two more Mack Tower Ladders with dual rear axles came along in the mid 1980s. Two snorkels on American LaFrance chassis came along in the early 1980s and replaced the well worn Hi-Ramgers. In the mid 1990s one of the Pitman / Oshkosh units was rehabbed with a glider kit by Pierce. In the late 1990s the devices off the two American LaFrance units were installed onto new KME chassis. They were the last two snorkels acquired by the PFD. In the early2000s two KME Ladder Towers were built for Philadelphia but rejected. These were followed by two different KME ladder towers that were accepted one of which is still assigned to busy Tower Ladder 6 in West Philadelphia. Most recently four Seagrave Tower Ladders were acquired and a fifth Seagrave Tower Ladder is on order. The half century of snorkels in the Philadelphia Fire Department ended with the recent acquisition of the Seagrave Tower Ladders.
l appreciate your use of '' tower ladders '' and '' ladder towers '' there is a difference which you are obviously aware of.
 
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