Tower Ladders vs Rear Mount straight ladders

[TLTruckie]

R = Rearmount = rescue/Roof
T = Tower Ladder = Tons of water.

LOL. Happy Holidays

TL - much easier to VES from a properly placed TL bucket then a stick, especially when and if a rapid exit is called for. Victim removal is easer and safer too.

Also must TL bucket‘s tool bin should have most any tools you may need at your finger tips , hooks , halligans , axe, maul, bolt cutters , wire cutters. water can, and usually a roof rope too. so basically wether it’s the LCC, OV or Roof FF . All he’s needs is a SCBA, or a saw if it’s going to the roof.

 

[TLTruckie]

nothing like climbing the aerial first due roof with everything, and then 2nd due roof just loads his stuff on the TL and gets brought up there like a gentleman lol

If the first due is a rear mount then way is the second due also taking his bucket to the roof. Wouldn't it be more beneficial for the bucket to be used for VES by the OV or the LCC . Second due roof up the same aerial. As long as the fire apartment is accessible for the bucket. That’s was the way we used our bucket 90% of the time. And no , our LCC didn’t just stand on the turntable.

i worked in a predominantly 3& 4 story row frames neighborhood , with a mix of some brownstones. The two rear mounts we usually ran in with knew our MO and we worked great together. A well oiled machine!

 

[ta176]

As someone who was exposed to mostly RM's in my career there was a time when the older RM's had trouble taking out windows in the many vacant buildings we encountered. The newer Rigs around the mid 70's started to have more power going to the aerial to vent windows. A lot of times we were challenged to take out double windows aiming for the vertical wood separating the 2 windows. We always had a hook on the fly ladder, so 1 less tool to carry up, but there for someone to take out windows if aerial couldn't. I did get to drive 120 one night, but all I did was get them there and put it in pumps. The 120 boys did the rest with the bucket. I never liked the bouncing of the bucket when stopping it. The few times I was in it twas a cold freezing night with water spray all over me.

 

[Captain784]

Aerial ladders have their place, but aerials are harder to use by civilians and are more dangerous to use. I truly feel you should NEVER NOT use ALL the tormenters on an aerial or tower ladder, as I makes the device unstable if movement is required in a direction other than the original direction. This can happen when the areal or Tower Ladder must be rotated away from the fire building to get firefighters or civilians away from venting fire.
I have over 50 years of experience with a Volunteer Fire Company, and 30+ years with the FDNY, much of that time in Aerial or Tower Ladder companies. I have NEVER seen at any time all the tormentors were not fully down and locked in an operating Aerial or Tower Ladder.
Captain Bob Rainey FDNY Engine 25 retired

 

[10-75K]

How did the tower ladder came to be in the FDNY what is the history behind the decision was it because high increase in fires every year beginning mid 60s or was it just piece of apparatus the FDNY needed and realized just how valuable they would become during the war years.
Also how crucial was the tower ladder to the FDNY during the war years and did help with the war years becoming worse than what it was.

 

[JohnnyGage]

How did the tower ladder came to be in the FDNY what is the history behind the decision was it because high increase in fires every year beginning mid 60s or was it just piece of apparatus the FDNY needed and realized just how valuable they would become during the war years.
Also how crucial was the tower ladder to the FDNY during the war years and did help with the war years becoming worse than what it was.

During the early 1960s, most major fire apparatus manufacturers were introducing their own versions of elevating platforms. New York was somewhat unique in terms of building construction, street layout, street congestion and overhead obstructions--such as elevated train structures--when compared to most other major cities. Each of the aerial platforms then available had some major drawbacks when considered for operations in New York’s conditions. Working with Mack Trucks, an apparatus was developed that was very specific and tailored to New York City’s needs. The original tower-ladder was only slightly longer than 35 feet, perfect for responding and positioning in New York’s street conditions and much shorter than today’s towers. The first tower-ladder was delivered in 1964 and assigned to Ladder 1. This apparatus responded to virtually every major fire throughout the city, not only proving its value, but also establishing new tactics and procedures with its new capabilities. A second tower-ladder was placed into service at Ladder 14 in 1966. Based on the high degree of operational efficiency shown by these two tower-ladders, plans were drawn to purchase more of these units.

 

[10-75K]

Thanks Johnny age, when I was living in the south bronx before my parents decided to step out and move to jersey because one way or another the fires effected everyday living even though we never got burned out we were always helping someone that did and when those fires starting closer to Arthur Ave parents decided to move.
It's the tower ladder that got me so interested in becoming a firefighter in the jersey.
It was amazing to watch fully involved vacant tenements top to bottom front to back and just one tower ladder knocking down the fire.

 

[3511]

A lot easier taking the saw to the roof with a Tower Ladder.

Perhaps another consideration in where Tower ladders are located...

Back in the late '60s L38 was one of the first truck companies in the Bronx to be equipped with a power saw. That one piece of equipment became very popular resulting in L38 being special called all over the borough. As more and more tower ladders came in service it made sense to put one on Belmont Avenue to facilitate 38's use of the power saw.

Nope. It was determined that Belmont Avenue was not wide enough for a TL to easily get in and out of quarters. I believe it went instead to L58 on the much wider Tremont Avenue. This became an important consideration in where the TLs went. It also placed TLs in adjacent companies (58, TL31, TL41), a rarity.

So that's how it played out and pretty much true today if you think about it. Sometimes the obvious drives the policy.

 

[captaindewey50267021@gm]

Anyone placing a tormentor on an aerial or Tower Ladder on anything other than solid ground is doing a dangerous act. Both aerial and Tower Ladders have fallen or shifted position when one tormentor was not fully extended. Never place the tormentor of a 68,000 LBS Tower Ladder on dirt or any other unstable area. Always consider what is under the tormentor be it aerial or Tower Ladder. I spent over 20 years in FDNY Truck Companies and saw very little set up time between Aerial and Tower Ladders. Captain Bob Rainey FDNY Engine 26 retired

 

[68jk09]

1965 ...after the Rescue's,108 got the next Partner Saw.

 

[3511]

1965 ...after the Rescue's,108 got the next Partner Saw.

Same result for 108, Chief? One power saw had them running all over?

Hard to believe that it took the FDNY that many years after WW II to get power saws. But then, they were still running wooden ariel ladders in open cabs.

 

[68jk09]

Same result for 108, Chief? One power saw had them running all over?

Hard to believe that it took the FDNY that many years after WW II to get power saws. But then, they were still running wooden ariel ladders in open cabs.

Yes lots of Special Calls....a big early on one was the "Hanseatic" Ship Fire on the Hudson River. ..... Hanseatic Ship fire

 

[ta176]

Back then FDNY was a step child that never got the money they needed to do the job. Hurst tools were only given to co.s near hiways. You needed anything for the Firehouse we all chipped in. So although we were the best and busiest Fire Dept., it was the brothers work efforts that made us what we were. Doing 20 runs and more a night and a couple of all hands thrown in. When I was in 233-2 we got a brand new 69 Mack pumper, no more CD rig, but the new rig had no Power Steering. Unfortunately it took 343 Brothers that made the supreme sacrifice to let people know how we put our life on the line day in and day out to protect and save the people of NYC. In the very early 80's a lot us went to EMT training on our own time and our own dime, City wouldn't spring for the cost of training that we received. Am I bitter, yes, but I loved my job and would go back in a flash. But I'm so glad to see the new era of FDNY getting what they need to do the job more efficiently and to protect the firefighters with better equipment all around.

 

[JohnnyGage]

Perhaps another consideration in where Tower ladders are located...

Back in the late '60s L38 was one of the first truck companies in the Bronx to be equipped with a power saw. That one piece of equipment became very popular resulting in L38 being special called all over the borough. As more and more tower ladders came in service it made sense to put one on Belmont Avenue to facilitate 38's use of the power saw.

Nope. It was determined that Belmont Avenue was not wide enough for a TL to easily get in and out of quarters. I believe it went instead to L58 on the much wider Tremont Avenue. This became an important consideration in where the TLs went. It also placed TLs in adjacent companies (58, TL31, TL41), a rarity.

So that's how it played out and pretty much true today if you think about it. Sometimes the obvious drives the policy.

3511, I may be 100% wrong, but as a member of L 38 I never heard about L 38 becoming a TL, I also checked with L 38 historian guru who also never heard of that... What I do know, the street and firehouse was too tight for a SECOND LADDER CO SECTION and that's when L 27-2 was created and E 88-2. When L 27-2 was disbanded it became TL 58. The first batch of single rear axel TLs had almost the same length and wheelbase as a Rearmount and If you recall, L 38 also had a huge 110' Rearmount (The Barge) that was able to navigate the tight street and was as long as a dual axel TL... as for the saw, in 1964 a pilot program to test circular saws was assigned to L 26, 31, 78, 108, 120, 127 and rescues...(As a side note, L 19 was supposed to be a TL except L 31 Capt Bob Farrell, a friend of Chief O'Hagan convinced him that L 31 should be a TL instead.)

 

[kidfrmqns]

3511, I may be 100% wrong, but as a member of L 38 I never heard about L 38 becoming a TL, I also checked with L 38 historian guru who also never heard of that... What I do know, the street and firehouse was too tight for a SECOND LADDER CO SECTION and that's when L 27-2 was created and E 88-2. When L 27-2 was disbanded it became TL 58. The first batch of single rear axel TLs had almost the same length and wheelbase as a Rearmount and If you recall, L 38 also had a huge 110' Rearmount (The Barge) that was able to navigate the tight street and was as long as a dual axel TL... as for the saw, in 1964 a pilot program to test circular saws was assigned to L 26, 31, 78, 108, 120, 127 and rescues...(As a side note, L 19 was supposed to be a TL except L 31 Capt Bob Farrell, a friend of Chief O'Hagan convinced him that L 31 should be a TL instead.)

That an interesting note about L19. They would have still been on E166 St at that time which is probably as tight if not tighter as Belmont Ave. I often look at that old firehouse on E166 St on Google and imagine the insanity on that tight block during shift change with E50, E50-2, L19 and Div 6 all coming from those quarters.

 

[JohnnyGage]

That an interesting note about L19. They would have still been on E166 St at that time which is probably as tight if not tighter as Belmont Ave. I often look at that old firehouse on E166 St on Google and imagine the insanity on that tight block during shift change with E50, E50-2, L19 and Div 6 all coming from those quarters.

When L 58 was created, they responded from E 176 St, a narrow street before they moved to East Tremont Av.

 

[3511]

3511, I may be 100% wrong, but as a member of L 38 I never heard about L 38 becoming a TL, I also checked with L 38 historian guru who also never heard of that... What I do know, the street and firehouse was too tight for a SECOND LADDER CO SECTION and that's when L 27-2 was created and E 88-2. When L 27-2 was disbanded it became TL 58. The first batch of single rear axel TLs had almost the same length and wheelbase as a Rearmount and If you recall, L 38 also had a huge 110' Rearmount (The Barge) that was able to navigate the tight street and was as long as a dual axel TL... as for the saw, in 1964 a pilot program to test circular saws was assigned to L 26, 31, 78, 108, 120, 127 and rescues...(As a side note, L 19 was supposed to be a TL except L 31 Capt Bob Farrell, a friend of Chief O'Hagan convinced him that L 31 should be a TL instead.)

Mr Gage,
I take your critique in the spirit I assume offered. No BS allowed on this site. And I stand by what I wrote.

During the summer of 1969, while on extended leave from the Army, I tended bar at a noted Irish pub on Webster Avenue. It was owned by a member of Harlem's E91-2 and so became a fireman's hangout. I'm sure you would recognize the names of some of these fellows were I to rattle them off. They were then all on the job and assigned to such companies as E88, L27, L19, E79, E94, E48, among others. I'm also sure you know one of them, as his 30+ year career in L38 would overlap yours in that company. This was the time of the peak War Years. Overhearing their conversations about the fire department fascinated this young buff. I was "all ears".

That summer brought the first Tower Ladder to the Bronx, assigned to L44 on the wide Morris Avenue. Many truck companies in the borough had been considered for its placement. L38 was eliminated from the list because Belmont Avenue was not wide enough to accommodate a rig of that length without a tiller. (Of course, these rigs were relatively new and the department still not sure of how they would function.) That is what I was told.

Your discussion of L27, 27-2, E88-2, the "Barge", etc., is all correct but those events occurred in the latter part of 1969 and later. Not particularly relevant to this conversation.

I take your word about the pilot program for circular saws in 1964. By 1969, L38 was operating with one of the first saws assigned to the Bronx which placed them in high demand for special calls. That is also what I was told.

I would enjoy meeting with your "L38 historian guru". We could compare notes, as I wrote the expansive (46 pages) history of the house that appears in 88/38's milestone Centennial Anniversary book.

Again, I stand by what I wrote.