Volly companies in NYC
- Thread starter SIfire82
- Start date
As long as these departments keep their high standards, then it's my
opinion that they're an asset, especially as the city disbands companies or in the areas like Broad Channel or Travis where existing companies are farther away. Their equipment tends to be more specialized for the neighborhood served as well.
opinion that they're an asset, especially as the city disbands companies or in the areas like Broad Channel or Travis where existing companies are farther away. Their equipment tends to be more specialized for the neighborhood served as well.
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Union busting....no need for them to exist. In 1865 we became career for many reasons, in a city of 8 million, with an FD of about 10,000, we can cover it. Open up a house in those areas if the need warrants it.
Bulldog
Bulldog
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Kind of obvious what side of the fence you come from! That's not really their reason for existence at all, and I'm very sure even if they were eliminated FDNY would not add companies or Manpower. The ones that still exist are very community centered and are assets to those communities. As stated earlier they have some very specialized equipment for their neighborhoods which in most cases are very unique within the city. Not saying that they are completely essential for good fire protection but they certainly are a help in many cases and their mission is not and never was union busting!LosBomberos2811 said:
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I stand on that side of the fence as you put it because I work here. Just like a home builder would be upset if I started doing his job for free in his back yard with the argument that I have a specialized tool for building homes. We already have equipment in place in those outlying areas to handle the emergencies that pop up. We do not rely on the volunteers for anything and in most cases they just get in the way, and there is no accountability.
Volunteers serve a purpose in areas that do not have a massive career department that posess all the tools one can imagine. Where I live in rockland, volleys work, we're I work in NYC, they do not, nor is there a need for them. Doing work for free in an area that is covered by paid union members is scabbing, plain and simple.
Volunteers serve a purpose in areas that do not have a massive career department that posess all the tools one can imagine. Where I live in rockland, volleys work, we're I work in NYC, they do not, nor is there a need for them. Doing work for free in an area that is covered by paid union members is scabbing, plain and simple.
Bulldog
Bulldog
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In many areas they are accepted and appreciated even by most career firefighters! Look at Rochester New York for instance, they have a volunteer unit (Rochester Protectives) who the city actually provides a truck and driver for. They have been in service for many years and are greatly appreciated by the paid firefighters!LosBomberos2811 said:
In your case you and I both know that if the volunteer companies in NYC ever stop existing there will be no additional firefighters, union members in your words, hired. Thus the so called scabs actually make your job a little easier! They're certainly not taking money out of your pocket or that of any other paid firefighter.
By the way, by definition scabs are workers brought in to replace union workers when they go on strike, not supplemental resources.
Bulldog said:
I gave the Rochester Protectives website a look. It appears to be a group of youngsters who provide salvage services after fires are extinguished. http://rochesterprotectives.com/index.php To my knowledge, the vollies in the 5 boros consider themselves to be fire departments, not salvage units.
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I'm not going to get into a vollie career debate. The question posed was about NYC, not Rochester or wherever, I work here in NYC, it affects me, I have insight. And yes, opening of a new house would mean more guys needed. We are already understaffed as it is in our city, for our operations, for our response area. The volunteers do not make my job easier as you say. They are not in our response matrix, we sometimes see them, but we do not rely on them. NYC is not like anyplace in the US.
They are scabs, they are providing a service in a union shop at non union wages and are not represented by the union whos members provided that service, not to mention we are working without a contract. I can go on forever about this, but I won't. I gave my opinion on the question asked, and it was that I don't see a need for vollies in NYC and the ones here are scabs, that's all. I have no issues with vollies, the ones I see serving my community in rockland, seem to be doing it well.
They are scabs, they are providing a service in a union shop at non union wages and are not represented by the union whos members provided that service, not to mention we are working without a contract. I can go on forever about this, but I won't. I gave my opinion on the question asked, and it was that I don't see a need for vollies in NYC and the ones here are scabs, that's all. I have no issues with vollies, the ones I see serving my community in rockland, seem to be doing it well.
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SIfire82 said:
So you starte the thread to troll? This little pretentious comment is full of flawed logic. How about we have a dialectical approach that transcends pragmatism, so I don't conclude you are a Egodystonic , sycophant with a procreate lack of social cognition?
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At no time to my knowledge has any of the Volunteer companies within the city ever tried to replace any of the paid services. On Staten Island both of the volunteer companies are dispatched by the city and although not dispatched directly by the city I am aware of at least 2 other volunteer units have had printers installed in their fire houses by the city and get the same print out tickets from their first due city units. I was a volunteer in the city from 1968 until 1977, and was involved in the civil defense auxiliaries during that same time period.
The Volly vs Paid argument has been going on for over a hundred years and it will continue to go on long after all of us are gone. It is a senseless and useless argument that has no winners. Over the years I have learned to ignore it and enjoy the feeling of being able to give back to the community, learned that professionalism is not in the paycheck you get but in doing the best job you can. The goal is to return home the same way you left there... on your own 2 feet. The City actually pays the work mans comp. ins. premiums for all of the volunteer departments (both fire departments as well as the volunteer ambulances
The Volly vs Paid argument has been going on for over a hundred years and it will continue to go on long after all of us are gone. It is a senseless and useless argument that has no winners. Over the years I have learned to ignore it and enjoy the feeling of being able to give back to the community, learned that professionalism is not in the paycheck you get but in doing the best job you can. The goal is to return home the same way you left there... on your own 2 feet. The City actually pays the work mans comp. ins. premiums for all of the volunteer departments (both fire departments as well as the volunteer ambulances
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I have no view on the volly companies in NYC. I have never seen one in action, have never seen one anywhere in the City and most important, I don't work in the FDNY
When you start a thread and ask for opinions you will get varying responses, some you will not like, expect that. Respect each others opinion, agree to disagree and move on. If you want mindless banter back and forth please initiate that somewhere else.
When you start a thread and ask for opinions you will get varying responses, some you will not like, expect that. Respect each others opinion, agree to disagree and move on. If you want mindless banter back and forth please initiate that somewhere else.
It depends on who you ask, obviously. As you can see 2811 doesn't have a positive view of them. Most of them were there before FDNY established a presence. That's one of the reasons Oceanic and Richmond still exist today, on top of something like the City Charter, if I remember right. Personally, I don't mind them. Probably because of my background in the vollies upstate. The one intangible, is can they be depended on to show up?? There are positives and negatives to the argument. Training and equipment, for one. Most of these guys are trained by the state of NY, and do provide a service to the community. Especially in the EMS field. They also help out a lot in Queens with brush fires down in Howard Beach or the Channel.
This is going to be a debate, that as stated earlier, will continue long after we're gone. But, I don't see the city beefing up fire protection in any of those areas any time soon.
This is going to be a debate, that as stated earlier, will continue long after we're gone. But, I don't see the city beefing up fire protection in any of those areas any time soon.
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what do you guys think abut a FDNY Queens firefighter who is a neighborhood volly in the rockaways
Let?s look at some historical information. Once all of NYC was covered by volunteers, people looking to help their neighbors in the time of need. Today the entire city is covered by the paid dept., better known as FDNY. We know that the VFD?s have been around for years serving their communities. Across the Unites States VFD?s make up over 90 % of the fire service being first due to their neighbors. They perform a lot of services for their communities that in the past years, FDNY had not done. FDNY in the past would not pump out a person's home, but the volley?s do! FDNY companies 20 years ago were not trained or equipped to handle first aid runs, but the VFD?s were. The list can go on.
Stop & think about the other side of the coin, does the plumber complain when a ladder crew corrects a water leak or how about the elevator mechanic who has to repair a lift after the occupants were removed by firefighters. He gets none of the glory, but the firefighters are considered to be the heroes. These are in most cases union jobs, but then why would one have to ask why are unionized firefighters performing jobs that other unionized specialist do daily? Why, because they are trying to help someone in need. I think the same holds true for the VFD?s that serve in NYC.
If you look at where the VFD?s are one would see that that were there long before any FDNY units were assigned & mostly serve in remote forgotten communities of the city -
Staten Island:
Oceanic - located at 4010 Victory Blvd - served their community long before Engine 154 was established in 1972 at 3730 Victory Blvd. Remember that 154 was deactivated for several days in July of 1975 & again between 11-22-75 until 7-2-1981. Coving the area then first due & today second due engine is Engine 166 who was established on April 15, 1963 along with Ladder 86 at 1400 Richmond Ave. Before that was Engine 163 & Ladder 83 were first due in Travis. They were established in 1932. Prior to that Engines 158 & 157 were the units assigned on the box for that community. What a long ride!
Richmond Engine - located at 3664 Richmond Rd. in the Historical area known at Richmond Town. It was on June 18, 1960 that Engine 165 & Ladder 85 were established at 3067 Richmond Rd. in that area of the borough. In case you are not aware of it Engine 165 had over 300 first due boxes. Not first alarm boxes, but 1st due on the first alarm. That's a big area to cover & I wonder how long it would take them to travel from one side of their response area to the opposite end. Ladder 85 has a larger area to cover responding in with Engines 159 & 154 who do not have trucks co's in their stations. I think that Richmond Engine is the busiest of all NYC VFD?s.
BROOKLYN:
Gerritsen Beach: located at 52 Seba Ave - A small isolated waterfront community with mostly frame dwellings. Nearest FDNY unit is Engine 321 located at 2165 Gerritsen Ave. Engine 321 was established in 1930. Second due to the area is Engine 309, established in 1927. Engine 254 is third due, but they were a volunteer company dating back to 1895. Before moving to their current qtrs, they were on Ocean Pkwy. Another long - long ride!
QUEENS:
Rockaway Peninsula ?
Roxbury located at 42 State Rd;
Rockaway Point located at 204-26 Rockaway Point Blvd,
Brezzy Point housed at 29 Point Brezzy Ave.
These are three separate departments that are located all west of Engine 329?s Qtrs at Beach 169 St, near the foot of the Marine Parkway Bridge. Engine 329?s station opened on Dec. 2, 1961 along with Ladder 171. Ladder 171 was deactivated on Nov. 22, 1975. Engine 329 is equipped with a second piece for responses into the Brezzy Point community because of narrow streets mostly filled by sand. This once summer time community is now an all year residential area. FDNY apparatus will have problems reaching most of these homes & will be forced to remain on paved roadways. Second due Engine is 266 with the first due Ladder 137. Engine 266 was established in 1905 & Ladder 137 dates back to 1913. Rolling in third due is Engine 309 & the second due truck is Ladder 159, both from Brooklyn & having to cross a bridge that does open that takes 15 minutes or more per opening. If there is a report of a structural fire in this community - all three VFD's turn out on the alarm.
Broad Channel is an isolated community located on an island in Jamaica Bay requiring that FDNY fire apparatus to cross over either one of two bridges to reach the community. The station is located at 15 Noel Rd, & the community is hoping to build a new station. First due is Engine 266 who was organized in 1905. Quartered with 266 was Engine 267, but they were disbanded in 1972. Coming from the north is Engine 331 with Ladder 173. Both units are quartered at 158-57 Cross Bay Blvd since 1966. Before that Engine 268 from the Rockaway?s responded second due with Engine 285 coming from 103-17 98 St. 285 is housed with L-142 with both companies being established in 1915. FDNY has had plans in case of bad weather to establish FDNY units at this fire station for the duration of the situation.
West Hamilton Beach might be the most isolated community of all the areas. The fire house is located at 102-33 Davenport Ct, not too far from the ?A? Train. This community is located east of the Howard Beach area which today houses Engine 331 & Ladder 173 since 1966. To reach the community there about two or three streets off of Cross Bay Blvd that leads into the area, but part of the community is served by a small vehicle bridge besides an additional footbridge. It?s adjacent to JFK Airport & just on the opposite side of the Belt Parkway near Aqueduct Raceway. FDNY has requested this department to assist fighting brush fires outside of their local area because of their specialized equipment.
THE BRONX:
Edgewater: The fire house is located at Main St with in their community just North-west of the Throggs Neck Bridge toll plaza. It?s another community that had changed over the years from a summer time beach community to an all year residential community. It has one way into the community that is lined with narrow streets making it hard for FDNY apparatus to move off of the main roads & impossible to pass a double parked vehicle. There is no room for a ladder or even a large sized engine company to make turns. The VFD has smaller rigs so they can navigate local streets. This community had had their share of multiple alarm fires with one destroying the business area. Engine 72 is first due, but they were only established in 1972. FDNY was going to also establish Ladder 57 in the same fire house. A rig was there, the number was on the station, but the company was never established. Prior, Engine 72 was Engine 88-2nd second. Today rolling in as the second due engine is 89 & Ladder 50 is still 1 due. Engine 89 was established at 2924 Bruckner Blvd in 1926, but was closed in 1975 by the city for a few days in July. Ladder 50 was also organized in 1926. Responding third due is Engine 64 & Ladder 47 who is second due. These two ladder companies have the biggest first alarm areas in the Bronx.
Silver Beach: Located in the Throggs Neck section. This gated community maintained a volunteer department up until 1972 when Engine 72 opened their station. Located on the south side of the Throggs Neck Bridge toll plaza & not too far from the Marina Del Rey at the foot of East Tremont Ave, Silver Beach was also a beach community with numerous frame structures. The fire house was located off of Pennyfield Ave, near the red barn.
Aviation # 3: For many years their fire station was located at 1820 Gildersleeve Ave off of White Plains Rd. in the Classion Point section of the Sound View community. From what I was told, this department had several stations long before their first due company Engine 96 was established in 1935. Over the years, several of Aviation?s stations closed leaving the last station in the community building. This served as their station before it was destroyed during the redevelopment of part of the community. The community also housed a public beach with in the community besides running a ferry to Whitestone, Queens, long before the Whitestone Bridge was constructed. The area also had an amusement park. In later years, the community supported a beach club that brought hundreds of people to the area daily. This caused Aviation 3 to purchase an ambulance for first aid calls. The old timers stayed within the community with fire apparatus that could travel the narrow back streets of Classion Point. Over the years, residents invested money into their homes, making them taller & larger. The beach clubs closed along after the ferry & amusement park disappeared from the landscape. The two beach club properties were sold & condo?s were constructed. Today due to recent events, Aviation 3 closed their door most likely causing their former members to turnover in their graves.
MANHATTAN: No VFD's
I think that the NYC VFD?s are needed ? they protect their communities, the same way we try to protect our homes and vehicles with fire extinguishers. They know what they can do & once FDNY arrives, FDNY takes control of the operation.
Over the years requirements for the VFD?s have changed. Many of these departments go outside the city for their members to receive the required state training. From what I been told, the FDNY Fire Commissioner is responsible for their operations since they operate within NYC.
I only hope that this my open a few eyes.
Stop & think about the other side of the coin, does the plumber complain when a ladder crew corrects a water leak or how about the elevator mechanic who has to repair a lift after the occupants were removed by firefighters. He gets none of the glory, but the firefighters are considered to be the heroes. These are in most cases union jobs, but then why would one have to ask why are unionized firefighters performing jobs that other unionized specialist do daily? Why, because they are trying to help someone in need. I think the same holds true for the VFD?s that serve in NYC.
If you look at where the VFD?s are one would see that that were there long before any FDNY units were assigned & mostly serve in remote forgotten communities of the city -
Staten Island:
Oceanic - located at 4010 Victory Blvd - served their community long before Engine 154 was established in 1972 at 3730 Victory Blvd. Remember that 154 was deactivated for several days in July of 1975 & again between 11-22-75 until 7-2-1981. Coving the area then first due & today second due engine is Engine 166 who was established on April 15, 1963 along with Ladder 86 at 1400 Richmond Ave. Before that was Engine 163 & Ladder 83 were first due in Travis. They were established in 1932. Prior to that Engines 158 & 157 were the units assigned on the box for that community. What a long ride!
Richmond Engine - located at 3664 Richmond Rd. in the Historical area known at Richmond Town. It was on June 18, 1960 that Engine 165 & Ladder 85 were established at 3067 Richmond Rd. in that area of the borough. In case you are not aware of it Engine 165 had over 300 first due boxes. Not first alarm boxes, but 1st due on the first alarm. That's a big area to cover & I wonder how long it would take them to travel from one side of their response area to the opposite end. Ladder 85 has a larger area to cover responding in with Engines 159 & 154 who do not have trucks co's in their stations. I think that Richmond Engine is the busiest of all NYC VFD?s.
BROOKLYN:
Gerritsen Beach: located at 52 Seba Ave - A small isolated waterfront community with mostly frame dwellings. Nearest FDNY unit is Engine 321 located at 2165 Gerritsen Ave. Engine 321 was established in 1930. Second due to the area is Engine 309, established in 1927. Engine 254 is third due, but they were a volunteer company dating back to 1895. Before moving to their current qtrs, they were on Ocean Pkwy. Another long - long ride!
QUEENS:
Rockaway Peninsula ?
Roxbury located at 42 State Rd;
Rockaway Point located at 204-26 Rockaway Point Blvd,
Brezzy Point housed at 29 Point Brezzy Ave.
These are three separate departments that are located all west of Engine 329?s Qtrs at Beach 169 St, near the foot of the Marine Parkway Bridge. Engine 329?s station opened on Dec. 2, 1961 along with Ladder 171. Ladder 171 was deactivated on Nov. 22, 1975. Engine 329 is equipped with a second piece for responses into the Brezzy Point community because of narrow streets mostly filled by sand. This once summer time community is now an all year residential area. FDNY apparatus will have problems reaching most of these homes & will be forced to remain on paved roadways. Second due Engine is 266 with the first due Ladder 137. Engine 266 was established in 1905 & Ladder 137 dates back to 1913. Rolling in third due is Engine 309 & the second due truck is Ladder 159, both from Brooklyn & having to cross a bridge that does open that takes 15 minutes or more per opening. If there is a report of a structural fire in this community - all three VFD's turn out on the alarm.
Broad Channel is an isolated community located on an island in Jamaica Bay requiring that FDNY fire apparatus to cross over either one of two bridges to reach the community. The station is located at 15 Noel Rd, & the community is hoping to build a new station. First due is Engine 266 who was organized in 1905. Quartered with 266 was Engine 267, but they were disbanded in 1972. Coming from the north is Engine 331 with Ladder 173. Both units are quartered at 158-57 Cross Bay Blvd since 1966. Before that Engine 268 from the Rockaway?s responded second due with Engine 285 coming from 103-17 98 St. 285 is housed with L-142 with both companies being established in 1915. FDNY has had plans in case of bad weather to establish FDNY units at this fire station for the duration of the situation.
West Hamilton Beach might be the most isolated community of all the areas. The fire house is located at 102-33 Davenport Ct, not too far from the ?A? Train. This community is located east of the Howard Beach area which today houses Engine 331 & Ladder 173 since 1966. To reach the community there about two or three streets off of Cross Bay Blvd that leads into the area, but part of the community is served by a small vehicle bridge besides an additional footbridge. It?s adjacent to JFK Airport & just on the opposite side of the Belt Parkway near Aqueduct Raceway. FDNY has requested this department to assist fighting brush fires outside of their local area because of their specialized equipment.
THE BRONX:
Edgewater: The fire house is located at Main St with in their community just North-west of the Throggs Neck Bridge toll plaza. It?s another community that had changed over the years from a summer time beach community to an all year residential community. It has one way into the community that is lined with narrow streets making it hard for FDNY apparatus to move off of the main roads & impossible to pass a double parked vehicle. There is no room for a ladder or even a large sized engine company to make turns. The VFD has smaller rigs so they can navigate local streets. This community had had their share of multiple alarm fires with one destroying the business area. Engine 72 is first due, but they were only established in 1972. FDNY was going to also establish Ladder 57 in the same fire house. A rig was there, the number was on the station, but the company was never established. Prior, Engine 72 was Engine 88-2nd second. Today rolling in as the second due engine is 89 & Ladder 50 is still 1 due. Engine 89 was established at 2924 Bruckner Blvd in 1926, but was closed in 1975 by the city for a few days in July. Ladder 50 was also organized in 1926. Responding third due is Engine 64 & Ladder 47 who is second due. These two ladder companies have the biggest first alarm areas in the Bronx.
Silver Beach: Located in the Throggs Neck section. This gated community maintained a volunteer department up until 1972 when Engine 72 opened their station. Located on the south side of the Throggs Neck Bridge toll plaza & not too far from the Marina Del Rey at the foot of East Tremont Ave, Silver Beach was also a beach community with numerous frame structures. The fire house was located off of Pennyfield Ave, near the red barn.
Aviation # 3: For many years their fire station was located at 1820 Gildersleeve Ave off of White Plains Rd. in the Classion Point section of the Sound View community. From what I was told, this department had several stations long before their first due company Engine 96 was established in 1935. Over the years, several of Aviation?s stations closed leaving the last station in the community building. This served as their station before it was destroyed during the redevelopment of part of the community. The community also housed a public beach with in the community besides running a ferry to Whitestone, Queens, long before the Whitestone Bridge was constructed. The area also had an amusement park. In later years, the community supported a beach club that brought hundreds of people to the area daily. This caused Aviation 3 to purchase an ambulance for first aid calls. The old timers stayed within the community with fire apparatus that could travel the narrow back streets of Classion Point. Over the years, residents invested money into their homes, making them taller & larger. The beach clubs closed along after the ferry & amusement park disappeared from the landscape. The two beach club properties were sold & condo?s were constructed. Today due to recent events, Aviation 3 closed their door most likely causing their former members to turnover in their graves.
MANHATTAN: No VFD's
I think that the NYC VFD?s are needed ? they protect their communities, the same way we try to protect our homes and vehicles with fire extinguishers. They know what they can do & once FDNY arrives, FDNY takes control of the operation.
Over the years requirements for the VFD?s have changed. Many of these departments go outside the city for their members to receive the required state training. From what I been told, the FDNY Fire Commissioner is responsible for their operations since they operate within NYC.
I only hope that this my open a few eyes.
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Also add Broad Channel VFD and West Hamilton Beach VFD, both in Queens.
squarewheels said:
I'm going to explain how it works in Kentucky where I live, as well as everywhere I've visited. Career firefighters volunteer in the town or community which they live in during their off hours. The career guys provide an added wealth of knowledge for the volunteers and they often serve as training officers for their volunteer department. The career chiefs don't care that their firefighters are volunteering and the volunteer chiefs appreciate that people who train daily are offering their time for free. The volunteers and careers don't have an issue with one another whatsoever. My volly department often responds on aid for a career city department and a career county department always responds automatically on my alarms. Both the careers and volunteers are required to have the same training as one another. With the two, there's never an issue. Yes, we're unionized in Kentucky, although I never was when I was career. IAFF is everywhere as it is in other locales, so if anyone says we're redneck firefighters in Kentucky, it'll only make your post look like an ad hominem response. IAFF as well doesn't have an issue with career firefighters serving as volunteers. In Kentucky and in many other places, the career firefighters are pulled from the volunteers. This thread is rediculous as I feel it's meant to hurt somebody individually, so I'm through following it. The fact that there's people complaining about people serving their community reflects on the quality of the individual complainer, not the person contributing their time. I once lived on Staten Island and if I were to move back, I'd be at either Richmond Engine or Oceanic within days inquiring about membership.
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Atlas said:
Yes they are Atlas. My eyeballs are going. Sorry. By the way, that is an excellent post.