War Years Tactics

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Bronx72

Joined
Aug 16, 2010
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Interested in getting some thoughts or stories regarding various firefighting tactics and company operations.  I'll start with the following:
It's around 1970...No Handi-Talkies, and obviously no air-packs...Two and two plus a Chief respond to a working fire on the 3rd floor of a 5-brick OMD.  The Roof Man of the first due truck has climbed the aerial to the roof, vented the bulkhead door, and has climbed down the rear fire escape to a third floor window where there is smoke seeping from a window.  He is able to open it and climbs into a bedroom.  The smoke is thick and he feels some heat from the hallway and hear the crackling of fire somewhere in the apartment.  He can also hear his truckmates attempting to force the door to the apartment.  He assumes the Engine company is behind them with a charged line, ready to enter the apartment.  The roofman's job is to search for possible occupants as well as perform ventilation.

How do these guys coordinate their tasks?  You don't want to vent too soon and you don't want to be hit by the effects of an opened nozzle.  How did they communicate?  What would be the next steps in this scenario?
 
nice scenario, must have happened 20,000 times in 15 yrs...lol  you would wait to take the glass until you heard them bleed the line, I don't remember opening to many. You could tell they were forcing the door by watching the glass , it would pulse with each hit if the place was really charged,  unless there was fire between you and the nozzle and the vent you'd be ok lol as good as it would be, and we always new where guys where supposed to be so ya sorta looked for them
 
That's interesting, and always risky, but well calculated.  It occurs to me also that without masks you could yell to others and let them know conditions/situation.  And the Can Man might enter ahead of the hoseline?
 
It sure brings back memories.  Like L103ret. says, it happened every night somewhere.  How we did the job without handie talkies who knows.  By the way, the first handie talkies went to the BC and his aide.  Later to the officer, roofman and tillerman (OV).  You knew the tactics; you could hear the FE team working on the door.  They would be coming toward you, the engine co. right behind.  You gave a quick search and when the door popped you took as much glass as possible, then get out of the way or you might get more than wet. Hey, you are getting me worked up here; I'm too old for this sh.. but would love to do it again if 40 years younger. 
 
Turn the corner at 3 am and smell painted wood burning mixed with the sweet smell of perfume from someones dresser, screaming, donkey kong on the fire escapes, ah for one more long hallway. Careful what we wish for...lol
 
You guys are right...sure wish we could do it again.......BX 72 in answer to your scenario....if the bldg was attached the Roofman would take the adjoining bldg to the roof rather than tie up the Aerial ..... he traveled light ....in most trucks he only carried a Halligan Hook ......the roof rope (manilla) was never taken initially it would be brought up by the Chauf.or Tillerman only if called for (by yelling over the front of the roof)......also inside there would be a limited amount of talking or yelling in order to conserve your breath..... many guys used a method of banging on the floor w/a  tool to indicate their location to the other members of the Truck.....you would leave the top snap of your coat open so you could grab a somewhat fresh breath or two from the air trapped inside your coat....Enginemen usually left their boots cuffed so they could pull them up quickly for line advancement & Truckies would (if they wore them) leave them turned down w/no cuffs because by the time you pulled them up (if you did) you might have shards of glass or plaster in the cuff then going into your boot......also it was frowned upon to have anything that could catch on something outside your coat.....a flashlight of the 2 cell type was in your pocket or hand...only Officers carried a big handlight....in the mid '70s many FFs started carrying larger handlights like today especially in the Truck....any light on a strap would have a seatbelt type release buckle or if rope was used as a strap a sharp knife was at the ready for an emergency ......today even though necessary there are so many potential things attached to a FF.... the mask w/straps & hoses ....leg belts on the PSS...thermal camera etc.....as i said these are necessary things & maybe w/the mask & full PPE you might not have to make as hasty an exit as w/out them in certain circumstances.   
 
and don't forget, using the adjoining bldg. to walk on the risers and watch out for no landings,  also found an axe useful and the Halligan hook was a great innovation when we got one
 
Was a company officer in two busy engines during this time period, 1970-76, 50 and 82. Have always felt, still do, that the main reason I had, after luck, for a minimum of injuries to my guys was my position on the line. I know it would piss many ff's off but I always backed up the nozzle man. None of my guys in either of those companies ever complained about this, and they were never shy to express their thoughts when they felt it necessary. I would have to hump, lighten up the line, was no problem. I would hump the line with one arm and have the other hand on the nozzle man's shoulder. Simple physics, measure the width between two men next to each other on a line, then just one. There was never enough room to manuver or advance upstairs, downstairs, hallways, etc. etc. with two next to each other. But most important I had absolute control of my line advancement. It moved forward, held or backed out with my instant commands. With any fire above the second floor of a tenement, when I could, I would try and get a look at the apartment directly below the fire apartment, the layout, how the rooms layed, turns etc. I could call up my mask man when needed. It was my commands to "over your head, sweep the floor and then more line." In both companies I would have one man with a scott. When needed I would call him up for a final push. After the strike in 73 we had 6 men lifted and replaced by 6 probies. I would always have one or two probies working each tour. After a job or two I would put one of them on the nozzle. I could help talk him in when necessary. Had one proby one time and he was hesitating on me. I finally said to him ( and I never cursed at my guys) "either move in or get the fuck off the nozzle". He moved in. I saw this same guy at a party 40 years later and he brought this incident up to me. Wasn't mad but hadn't forgotten either.

One absolute. A good truck made a good engine.  Worked with 19 and 31 those days. Always marveled that as we would just get the line to a top floor the saw would be going, windows taken out. Made the push so much easier. They were great men to have worked with.
 
"Bronx72", Wow listening to these guys (FDNYs Greatest Generation of Firefighters) talk is an education in itself. I know they probadly really don't want a"pat on the back", but "they sure do know their stuff". I just would like to say "Thank You", and you sure got my respect. I know its a little off track here, but I sure did learn from watching you guys.
 
That's great stuff, fellas.  Thanks for the descriptions.
Let's modify that scenario a little bit...
The roofman is greeted on the back side of the building by fire blowing out that same bedroom window and there are several people on the fire escape in need of assistance.  They came out of the next window, which is part of the adjoining apartment.  There's a lot of smoke pushing from that apartment, too.  The Roofman going to be tied up for a bit.
Inside on the landing, the FE team has done their job and the 1st due Engine will have a battle with the inferno in the apartment.
The 2nd due Engine, delayed due to a long distance and high fire activity, had pulled into the block just as the 1st due Engine was hooking to the the mid-block hydrant about 75' from the fire building.  The two truck companies were in position.
The BC wants a second line to be stretched to handle the fire in the adjoining apartment.
How does the Engine Company Officer and his men handle this situation?
 
mikeindabronx said:
Willy "D", those were the day's
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  Mike you and I can sure relate to that. What a time to be on the job, or a buff. And your pictures on www.fdnysbravest.com just add to the story.

  And by the way, I've known "Bronx72" for awhile now. Topshelf kind of guy. Retired teacher here in Connecticut.

 
Reply # 11 is a totally different question as it relates to 6 FF ENGs in the War Years as opposed to 4 FF ENGs today......today the ENG can only do one task.... the SOP calls for the 1st 2 ENGs to stretch the 1st line in  a bldg this size......If the 2nd due ENG was delayed the 1st ENG "MAY"  have the line in place (w/a delay)  by themselves today 3 ENGs are on most boxes .......also if it is a Job 7 a Rescue & or  Squad are close by they can also be utilized to assist w/or stretch additional lines...........  whether back then or now the TILLERMAN/OV will be coming UP the rear FE to aid those people......chances are then or now a Fire on the 3rd Fl of a 5 Sty would most times require the 2nd line to go to the floor above......unfortunately in general the City has put a crimp in a rapid line stretch in some cases by decreasing the manning as they have done.
 
The scenario was intended to address the 1970's  - so 6 FF's and quite a different doctrine is in place.  I'm wondering if they will stretch their line from their own engine or from the 1st due...
 
"Bronx72"(Rob), I've been told by a retired War Years member that the second line would be taken off of the first due engine already operating. But, the second engine company crew would bring their own nozzle with them. At least that's the way "I" understand it. If I'm wrong about that, I could have my facts "a$$ backwards".
 
When we rode heavy, 6 during the AR time period, first due 3 guys would start the stretch with our first line and the other 2 would drop a second line in front of the fire building before the engine would take a hydrant. Busy tours and we went in alone and the second line could protect an exposure the two who dropped it would operate it e.g. busy night tour we (50) went in alone to fire in a wood frame. Fire started by rubbish in alley between two frames,second line was used to knock down rubbish. Six guys was always a blessing.
 
******* said:
busy night tour we (50) went in alone to fire in a wood frame. Fire started by rubbish in alley between two frames,second line was used to knock down rubbish. Six guys was always a blessing.
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  Chief, that's a story in itself. Going into a building fire ALONE. Today, people would just find that so hard to believe. But I know that incidents like that were true. Or going into a building fire with 1 and 1, nobody else. I saw that for myself. Today its just so hard to believe that it actually happened. Units on the scene asking for help and dispatchers telling them, "we're trying to get you somebody".

  The officers and members of those companies apparently had to adapt to the conditions. In the reality of the War Years, I guess there was no such thing as going by the book. But somehow, the fires got put out. As for this War Years thing, some people may call me "obsessed", but after some 40 years, I'm still "impressed".
 
So right, Willy D.  The idea of dispatching two and two, or later two and one, could leave you short-handed and with maybe no more help coming, at least for awhile.  To realize how it is now with a 4th engine, a FAST truck, backed up by a Rescue AND a Squad tells you how things have changed.
 
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