4/24/23 Bronx 2nd Alarm Box 4047

seniorofficer

seniorofficer

Joined
Feb 7, 2012
Messages
198
The other unanswered question would be - not yet under control, and the PWH was just transmitted - why special call EIGHT trucks and FIVE engines, and not transmit the next higher alarm? wouldn't that be the proper SOP protocol? Is the correlation of engines to transmission of the next alarm out the window?
 
E

Extra One & One

Joined
May 11, 2021
Messages
310
JA290 said:
relocations are normally made by the boro’s decision dispatcher, and several things are taken into account. Such as,
- who’s currently unavailable (medicals, education day, training or old mechanical)
-Who’s already moved during the tour
-routes to get to the relocation
-boro coverage as a whole
-what boxes are out and do any have potential to be work.
In Brooklyn we normally try to not “bounce” relocations, because now you’re creating an RN until the bounced company back fills and you have 2 companies out of their normal area

At the time of 103 going to X, they were more than 10 trucks over the 2-2, so upwards of an 8th alarm worth of trucks.
131,119,146 were all unavailable. 124 was going to the bronx. 135 was out on the queens side


Not sure who was in service engine wise but if an engine in a double house is out, we try to not move the truck so the house is not emptied.

There had been previous relocations on the day tour with the plaque dedication (257/170 are must fills) plus the 41 batt 7-5 on linden
And sending an engine to the rockaways.

The thought process was 103 could take Penn to the Jackie and circumvent the van wyck, which has construction going on on the S/B side which is now down to 1 lane due to construction.

Just some thoughts on the hows and whys. I wasn’t working in Brooklyn yesterday.
Click to expand...
Good info, thanks. I was a county dispatcher for 28 years and moving apparatus is never easy! Always so much to consider and sometimes after you move one piece, a structure fire comes in for their first due district.

One final question: I understand what you said about the decision dispatcher making the call. What I don’t understand is how the boroughs know which other borough to ask for equipment? How did the Bronx dispatcher know to ask Brooklyn and not Manhattan or Queens,
 
E

entropychaser

Joined
Jun 27, 2017
Messages
1,021
Capttomo said:
You are so correct. There have been several relocates over the last few years that have raised our eyebrows and gotten a “really !?!?” Makes you wonder who/how is/are the predetermined CAD relocates being calculated But pulling 103 out of one of the top 3 response areas for runs and fires citywide, with no units covering from the south due to geography (water) and the second due trucks to some of 103’s first due boxes coming from a distance, and then at certain times of the day putting them on the road for 45 minutes to an hour after they have been directed to relocate 30 minutes after the job in the Bronx began makes absolutely no sense. Particularly when this was only a second alarm ( in reality enough trucks were special called to this job to probably equal the number of trucks for a fourth).
Click to expand...
No one is above the law. It does sound like 103 got on the wrong side of someone.
Signal73 said:
Not sure if what was mentioned above by a dispatcher was being "on the wrong side of someone"
Click to expand...
Very simple' It's as good as any logical way to explain a 103 to 47 relocation.
 
Signal73

Signal73

Joined
Jan 20, 2014
Messages
16,114
entropychaser said:
No one is above the law. It does sound like 103 got on the wrong side of someone.

Very simple' It's as good as any logical way to explain a 103 to 47 relocation.
Click to expand...
Relocations are normally made by the boro’s decision dispatcher, and several things are taken into account. Such as,
- who’s currently unavailable (medicals, education day, training or old mechanical)
-Who’s already moved during the tour
-routes to get to the relocation
-boro coverage as a whole
-what boxes are out and do any have potential to be work.
In Brooklyn we normally try to not “bounce” relocations, because now you’re creating an RN until the bounced company back fills and you have 2 companies out of their normal area

At the time of 103 going to X, they were more than 10 trucks over the 2-2, so upwards of an 8th alarm worth of trucks.
131,119,146 were all unavailable. 124 was going to the bronx. 135 was out on the queens side


Not sure who was in service engine wise but if an engine in a double house is out, we try to not move the truck so the house is not emptied.

There had been previous relocations on the day tour with the plaque dedication (257/170 are must fills) plus the 41 batt 7-5 on linden
And sending an engine to the rockaways.

The thought process was 103 could take Penn to the Jackie and circumvent the van wyck, which has construction going on on the S/B side which is now down to 1 lane due to construction.

Just some thoughts on the hows and whys. I wasn’t working in Brooklyn yesterday.







So this post by 290 you still think they got on the wrong side of the DD? All these examples of companies tied up you still think they were pissed at 103? Boy I can't wait to read that dispatcher explanation even though this post was pretty self explanatory
 
S

skiLB

Joined
Jan 11, 2016
Messages
2,244
STAjoey1 said:
BD: 'Ladder103-Relocate to Ladder 47' :rolleyes:

Ladder 103: 'Ladder 47 in The Bronx - 10:4'

Sheffield Ave East NY to 1214 Castle Hill Ave, Bronx [!]

They should Arrive Sometime This Afternoon... !?!
Click to expand...
Either that or they gng be turn around before the get over the bridge lol.
 
E

entropychaser

Joined
Jun 27, 2017
Messages
1,021
I would invite you to look at Rand Corporation's publication "Fire Department Deployment Analysis" Chapter 12- Relocations (pg 459-494). It provides a discussion and mathematical framework for dispatchers to consider. This chapter introduces the concept of Response Neighborhoods. All reasonable schemes depend on low alarm rates and only a couple of well characterized variables.

When you add variables, the optimal solution for "correct" relocations become impossible to know (unless you can get time on a supercomputer)- like this case. So, any explanation is as good as any other.

I would note that the 103 to 47 relocation violate the four principles of decision making of which companies to choose.

1) It caused a new location uncovered.
2) It moved a "too busy" company.
3) It moved a company protecting "too large" a region.
4) It moved a company "too far".

All of these factors increase the "penalty" or "cost" of the relocation.
 
Last edited:
8

8060rock

Joined
Feb 9, 2018
Messages
3,043
entropychaser said:
I would invite you to look at Rand Corporation's publication "Fire Department Deployment Analysis" Chapter 12- Relocations (pg 459-494). It provides a discussion and mathematical framework for dispatchers to consider. This chapter introduces the concept of Response Neighborhoods. All reasonable schemes depend on low alarm rates and only a couple of well characterized variables.

When you add variables, the optimal solution for "correct" relocations become impossible to know (unless you can get time on a supercomputer)- like this case. So, any explanation is as good as any other.

I would note that the 103 to 47 relocation violate the four principles of decision making of which companies to choose.

1) It caused a new location uncovered.
2) It moved a "too busy" company.
3) It moved a company protecting "too large" a region.
4) It moved a company "too far".

All of these factors increase the "penalty" or "cost" of the location.
Click to expand...
Sounds like a power play with (4) guys in the penalty box - better have a good goalie!
 
E

Extra One & One

Joined
May 11, 2021
Messages
310
entropychaser said:
Still another valid explanation! We relocated 103 to 47 because we're a collection of.........
Click to expand...
You may be correct, maybe somebody was mad! I think the point is that no one is sure. I would rather give the benefit of the doubt. I wouldn’t want to live life with my default response being negative and blaming. 👍
 
S

STAjoey1

Joined
Nov 2, 2022
Messages
392
'Signal':
' The thought process was 103 could take Penn to the Jackie and circumvent the van wyck'

I'm Sure The Plan was the 'Jackie ' to I Guess GCP w/ a Construction Issue on the Van Wyck,
but either way, it's probably the Whitestone to the Bridge, & after that, I have No Idea because
I DNK The Bronx. My thought was that it seemed a ridiculously Long Relocate, especially at that
Time of Day.
I did not know about all the excessive Truck s/c on this Job w/o Transmission of Higher Alarm...
I suppose w/ Conditions as they were at the time DOC had to get 'Creative'.
Fascinating discussion though, Thanks to All for contribution of interesting information. :cool:
 
E

entropychaser

Joined
Jun 27, 2017
Messages
1,021
If the Romans had known, two thousand years ago, that 103 was going to be relocated into 47, their comment would have been: Parturient Montes, Nascetur Ridiculus Mus!

"Mountains will go into labor and a silly little mouse will be born."
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top