11/23/25 Bronx Mutual Aide Box 6300

[nap72]

MVFD Chief asked FDNY for a 95' TL.

FDNY policy is to send 2 engines to feed the TL and send their own FAST truck, as well as a BC - a total response of 2E, 2L & 1BC.

When MVFD was told this, they declined the mutual aid.

That's what happened. No animosity, no big brother/little brother, no pissing match. Just that simple.

 

[nap72]

Those are things a written Mutual Aid agreement should address. How is an FDNY member getting hurt at a Mount Vernon job any different then a Yonkers member getting hurt? Or why would the union care if FDNY is called for mutual aid but not care about other Westchester depts? I assume each dept has its own union.

I know there are many factors to calling mutual aid but it is done with no problems in many parts of North America. When the fire is through the roof (literally and/or figuratively) having the closest units responding is important. Things like hydrant or hose connects can be overcome with having adaptors on hand. There is technology to overcome radio issues, or have the chiefs stand beside each other. FD and PD all over the place are on different radios and still work together.

If Boston and Phoenix can do it so can FDNY

No one said it can't be done by the FDNY - It is done, just not often.

A (Westchester) union would care because contractually their members are entitled to overtime to man additional units to fight these fires and backfill units.

You also said having the closest units responding is important. How come Mt. Vernon doesn't get dispatched automatically to fires north of E. 241 St? Yonkers FD to Riverdale Ave or Broadway? When both departments would beat in every 2nd due unit and maybe even 1st due units. It's because mutual aid is complex. Seems simple but it's just not that simple.

Borders exist in every single municipality. Cities must protect and serve their citizens first and assist other departments when they can.

Bottom line is there is more to it.

 

[OldGoat]

MVFD Chief asked FDNY for a 95' TL.

FDNY policy is to send 2 engines to feed the TL and send their own FAST truck, as well as a BC - a total response of 2E, 2L & 1BC.

When MVFD was told this, they declined the mutual aid.

That's what happened. No animosity, no big brother/little brother, no pissing match. Just that simple.

So requesting a T/L gets a total of 4 rigs and a Chief. Seems like overkill or over billing.

 

[4 truck]

No one said it can't be done by the FDNY - It is done, just not often.

A (Westchester) union would care because contractually their members are entitled to overtime to man additional units to fight these fires and backfill units.

You also said having the closest units responding is important. How come Mt. Vernon doesn't get dispatched automatically to fires north of E. 241 St? Yonkers FD to Riverdale Ave or Broadway? When both departments would beat in every 2nd due unit and maybe even 1st due units. It's because mutual aid is complex. Seems simple but it's just not that simple.

Borders exist in every single municipality. Cities must protect and serve their citizens first and assist other departments when they can.

Bottom line is there is more to it.

Yonkers Fd is on a box with fdny off of riverdale ave with the 52s

 

[4 truck]

So requesting a T/L gets a total of 4 rigs and a Chief. Seems like overkill or over billing.

He literally explained why the response is what it is.

 

[Capttomo]

MVFD Chief asked FDNY for a 95' TL.

FDNY policy is to send 2 engines to feed the TL and send their own FAST truck, as well as a BC - a total response of 2E, 2L & 1BC.

When MVFD was told this, they declined the mutual aid.

That's what happened. No animosity, no big brother/little brother, no pissing match. Just that simple.

Absolutely nothing wrong with this. Have to make sure the members are protected and safe. Too many variables in the mutual aid operation. Thanks for this post of clarification! Stay safe and Happy Thanksgiving to all.

 

[specter328]

A (Westchester) union would care because contractually their members are entitled to overtime to man additional units to fight these fires and backfill units.

That's 100% untrue, protection of life and property comes before any overtime possibility. I haven't heard of any westchester career department that is contractually guaranteed emergency overtime.

 

[GFD70]

So then on the flip side, what it the acceptable number of rigs for the FDNY to send out of the city? Sure, NYC has a much deeper pool of resources, but sending even one rig out leaves that area short of fire protection. If I lived in the North Bronx I'd probably disagree with some of the statements in this thread.

There's no question that the FDMV needs more manpower and better equipment, but why should another community bear the cost with no benefit? At least the Westchester jobs respond back and forth with each other.

FDMV staffs 4 engines, 2 trucks and a command car. Mount Vernon is 4 square miles. That's not a terrible ratio but that gets used up right off the bat at a structure fire. FDMV's on duty manning probably just meets NFPA 1710 (excluding high rise jobs, which yesterday would qualify as). Even if they had FDNY's staffing per rig, they're still looking at mutual aid in some shape or form for just about any job.

Mutual Aid is just that: MUTUAL. The FDNY is not about to start calling Westchester departments across the city line for their fires. The FDNY has always been seen as a last resort because of the process to call them along with the interoperability issues that exist. As far as I know, no FDNY units carry trunk radios for Westchester's trunking system nor do they have Westchester's fireground channels in their portables (Maybe a few battalions and the Field Comm Unit does). The UTAC system would have to be activated and all that does is add another layer of radios needed on scene. We have not held a joint FDNY/Westchester mutual aid drill since the new trunk system went live a few years back. Why? Because the FDNY stopped participating.

Westchester seems to get a job like yesterday's every couple of years. Roughly the same amount of mutual aid departments that operated yesterday, either on scene or backfilling, operated at a similar job in Yonkers ~5 years ago on Garret Place and that's with all of the YFD operating as well. One last thing worth noting is that most if not all department's involved yesterday recalled off-duty personnel to man reserve apparatus meaning that the interruption on operations for those jobs was minimal.

 

[nap72]

Yonkers Fd is on a box with fdny off of riverdale ave with the 52s

Yes for a class 3 for a Leak & Watts group home on Depeyster Street.

 

[nap72]

So requesting a T/L gets a total of 4 rigs and a Chief. Seems like overkill or over billing.

That is the FDNY policy.

 

[nap72]

That's 100% untrue, protection of life and property comes before any overtime possibility. I haven't heard of any westchester career department that is contractually guaranteed emergency overtime.

Westchester FDs do in fact get called in to man units that are sent to fight a fire or to man reserve units.

 

[nap72]

So then on the flip side, what it the acceptable number of rigs for the FDNY to send out of the city? Sure, NYC has a much deeper pool of resources, but sending even one rig out leaves that area short of fire protection. If I lived in the North Bronx I'd probably disagree with some of the statements in this thread.

There's no question that the FDMV needs more manpower and better equipment, but why should another community bear the cost with no benefit? At least the Westchester jobs respond back and forth with each other.

FDMV staffs 4 engines, 2 trucks and a command car. Mount Vernon is 4 square miles. That's not a terrible ratio but that gets used up right off the bat at a structure fire. FDMV's on duty manning probably just meets NFPA 1710 (excluding high rise jobs, which yesterday would qualify as). Even if they had FDNY's staffing per rig, they're still looking at mutual aid in some shape or form for just about any job.

Mutual Aid is just that: MUTUAL. The FDNY is not about to start calling Westchester departments across the city line for their fires. The FDNY has always been seen as a last resort because of the process to call them along with the interoperability issues that exist. As far as I know, no FDNY units carry trunk radios for Westchester's trunking system nor do they have Westchester's fireground channels in their portables (Maybe a few battalions and the Field Comm Unit does). The UTAC system would have to be activated and all that does is add another layer of radios needed on scene. We have not held a joint FDNY/Westchester mutual aid drill since the new trunk system went live a few years back. Why? Because the FDNY stopped participating.

Westchester seems to get a job like yesterday's every couple of years. Roughly the same amount of mutual aid departments that operated yesterday, either on scene or backfilling, operated at a similar job in Yonkers ~5 years ago on Garret Place and that's with all of the YFD operating as well. One last thing worth noting is that most if not all department's involved yesterday recalled off-duty personnel to man reserve apparatus meaning that the interruption on operations for those jobs was minimal.

Well said.

Additionally- Specter328 should take note that what you stated - "One last thing worth noting is that most if not all department's involved yesterday recalled off-duty personnel to man reserve apparatus".

The "large scale" mutual aid Westchester/FDNY drill has not been held in a few years due to financial restrictions (e.g. - cut backs in overtime) set forth by the City Hall of NYC. The FDNY is only limited to what those who run the city allow them to do.

But there is always a dialogue between the FDNY and Westchester in regards to mutual aid, and it's always evolving and improving, and trying to figure out what's best for all. Interoperability and mutual aid are separate things and are constantly being worked on.