Airport Emegencies

firebuffkevin

firebuffkevin

Joined
Nov 27, 2008
Messages
8,540
Report  1/23/2012  around 22:48

AIRPORT ALERT

(QUEENS - ) INBOUND DELTA FLIGHT 145 SOB DECLARING IN FLIGHT EMERGENCY 1 ENGINE OUT, COMPANIES STAGING.

Comment:  I imagine that the units staging are the PAPD crash vehicles.


Question:  When JFK and LaGuardia have an emergency such as this, is FDNY notified, and do they stage somewhere  at the airport?
 
Yes, for JFK Airport there are signs along the Belt Pkwy showing the way to staging area for JFK box 269
 
guitarman314 said:
Yes, for JFK Airport there are signs along the Belt Pkwy showing the way to staging area for JFK box 269
Click to expand...

I understand that.  My questions is when PAPD has an incident like this, do they automatically call FDNY to staging?
 
I can not figure out why the automatic second alarm for box 269 was not transmitted for this incident. There have been similar cases at JFK  and the automatic second has been transmitted. We are the backup engine for the hose wagon that is located at E 308. Also the main response into the airport is the van wyck exp which has signs posted along it with 269 on it. I have not heard box 269 transmitted in quite awhile, which I no is a good thing.
 
Port Authority "USED TO "  call FDNY automatically by transmitting box 269 which was an automatic Second Alarm........  in the years following 9-11the P.A. has been rolling the dice & flexing their muscle........eventually someone will get hurt.....the Airports in NYC should have FDNY  Members  manning the crash crew like it was years ago.
 
The boxes (269 and 37) are not under PAPD control. They are in the control tower and are for the FAA personnel to use. I don't know what their guidelines call for before they can pull the box.

PAPD historically doesn't like anyone on their land. Back in the late 80's when I was a TLC inspector  we had to ask their permission to come onto the property to inspect cabs. They said we can write all the tickets we want but they take all collars. Great racket.

 
Agreed the boxes are in the control tower however i think the P.A. has influence in lack of transmission's & they definitly physically control the gates.
 
An aircraft emergency is declared by the pilot and they will advise if they are requesting emergency equipment or not.  Often times pilots will not request emergency equipment but by FAA guidelines once the air traffic control tower is made aware of the incident they have to notify rescue equipment.

Here are some basic definitions for you all (not official):

Aircraft Alert:  Any Aircraft incident where the emergency notification to the Police Desk is made via the direct ?Crash Phone? from the FAA Air Traffic Control Tower (ATCT).  The Air Traffic Controller at the ATCT generally assigns the call type based on established protocols.  The FDNY receives all these calls as well.

Call 3-2:  A minor aircraft problem.  Even though the pilot has declared an
emergency they often are not requesting assistance from ARFF crews.

Call 3-3:  Declared when a potentially serious aircraft problem which may effect the flight controls of the aircraft or indicate a fire of other emergency situation.

Call 3-4:  An actual Crash or Major Fire involving an aircraft.  This will generate a major inter-agency mutual aid response.

Aircraft Emergency:  A potentially serious aircraft problem which may effect the flight controls of the aircraft or indicate a fire of other emergency situation.  Can also be declared by the pilot for other situations such as a seriously ill person, etc.  This is generally at the Pilot?s discretion.

As for the PAPD alert responses:  The level of the alert in general is decided by the air traffic control tower personnel.  The PAPD Tour Commander has the ability to upgrade it if they feel it is warranted. 

The vast majority of calls are stand-by responses.  the most common alerts are as a result of electronic indicators.  The most common "fire" emergencies are smoke conditions, the majority of which have alleviated prior to landing.  Planes land rather routinely with landing gear problems and engine problems.  All told, the JFK crews head out the door over 300 times per year and flow product less than 1 dozen times a year.  The vast majority of all situations aren't handled by firefighting interventions but by maintenance crews.

The SOP is quite clear.  The PAPD crews are the first responders.  The job is to knock down as much fire as possible and create evacuation paths for any survivors who can self-evacuate.  Once the initial attack is made, the FDNY takes over operations.  The PAPD Tour Commander remains as the overall incident commander (inter-agency protocol) and FDNY is the operations section.  It is unfortunate that there is no more inter-agency drills.  Anyone who actually comes down to the airport and deals with the PAPD patrol force and doesn't believe everything they read on the internet will find out that the PAPD cops do the job they are trained to do and have no problem with the FDNY coming when they are needed.  That's the rub.  WHEN THEY ARE NEEDED.  It's very difficult for a lot of firefighters to understand that.  Whether it is FDNY crews that should be there or PAPD crews that is decision far above anyone who will ever post on this board.

As far as access to the airport, the FDNY is only restricted from entering the airside of the facility.  this is NOT the PA's doing, it is an FAA requirement.  There is a protocol now for FDNY to be escorted to all incidents from 3 different staging areas for FDNY's conveinece.  the only time that 269 is the mandatory response is on activation of the 2-2.  Over the last few months a lot of effort has gone into making a better PAPD/FDNY relationship at JFK.

If anyone has any questions, feel free to post them.  I will not "debate" anything nor do I wish to engage in any conflict but I will answer any questions for you as best as possible.

PS:  PAPD & TLC run joint operations now several times a year.  Any collars TLC generates they take it and they process it themselves at 269.
 
Thanx from me, too, Kye994. Just the same as I remember when I was flying. Also . . . at Army & Air Force installations with an airfield, the local FD was allowed to operate BY INVITATION ONLY. Of course, there were mutual aid agreements, and the relations between the military & local FDs were usually very good. Not much different. Just takes a little understanding.
 
Recent Airport Emergency at Shannon Airport, County Clare - Ireland involving a US Air Force C130 which had declared an Emergency following engine trouble.

Top Photo: Shannon Airport Fire & Rescue Service ARFF staging just off the runway. At the rear of the photo is Shannon Town Fire Station's Alpha 1 which was dispatched following the Emergency declaration.

Bottom Photo: Shannon Airport Fire & Rescue Service ARFF & Shannon Town's Alpha 1 following the C130 off the runway






As far as i know in Ireland when an aircraft declares an Emergency local units are dispatched to the airport and to a separate holding area (staging area) just outside the airport.

Its usually 2 Engines 1 Rescue & District Officer (Battalion Chief)



 
Info for Chicago. An enroute emergency triggers a still-and-box response. O'Hare response is: from E-9 9 and Squad 7, 2 peice unit. E-10 ARFF units 654,655,656. TL-63: ARFF units 653,657,658. Also a still and box response from the city, E-11/T9 will be first due, along with other suppression units. Info on all unit can be found at Chicagoareafire.com, click on and go to MABAS 9, then go to Chicago. Hope u ejoy. One peice of info, public policy changed from CrashFireRescue to AirportFireRescue. CFR=AFRR.

























rescue



fire




fighting
 
What is interesting about Chicago O Hare Airport is the fact that CFD operated the fire fighting crash trucks and rescues
 
Yes and No. All O'Hare and Midway personnel are CFD personnel. But the US Government buys and support all ARFF rigs (not E-9, 10 TL 63 and Midway E-127) E-127 does have a still response district as an engine company. Also Sq-7 does have a response area depending on fire conditions. During the strike these personnel were forbidden to strike, the government paid your salaries and brought your rigs.
 
The fact remains in NYC the Port Authority is very busy trying to flex it's muscle.....not only at JFK & LAG but also at the WTC site as well as on the bridges....i have seen how this has grown for quite awhile now....way too much chest beating & politics & the public suffers....this includes Haz Mat incidents on PA property also.....i first started being involved in the '70s w/the JFK drills where the ENGs participated w/the Crash Crew in a relay drill & the LADs & Rescue went to a hangar containing mockups & pieces of all different aircraft sections....these were very well thought out & informative drills...through the years the relay drills have mostly remained the same however the search & rescue portion for the LADs & Rescue have  been eroded to not much more than entering  a single type of plane that is parked for maintenance & is being cleaned inside by workers at the same time the FDNY is doing a walkthrough....or on some days just getting involved w/the relay drill which is not the LADs & Rescue's mission gaining access & laddering a fuselage to facilitate handline attack if need be & conducting searches.......  no hands on & no real info as it used to be.....some of the PA members that i know from the early days are big bosses now.....when asked in the '90s what happened to the hangar w/the mockups etc the answer is we were told not to let FDNY have access ......the LAG interagency drills in the last few years have been very strange also....they seem to be orchestrated  to make it appear that the PA appears superior to FD & NYPD ESU...this should not be the focus....it should be for all too learn & come away w/some added knowledge....i have been to several plane crashes both on & off both airports .....at these responses there is plenty to do & very little conflict once the work starts....the problem now is obvious delayed notification.....playing catchup is dangerous to all.......we are all there to do a job....if an agency cannot work w/another that is a problem.....the PA is not big enough to complete the mission on their own in a serious situation...they do need FDNY & NYPD help......of course we are not going to run helter skelter through the airport....we stage & standby for orders......staging needed units AT the  time of the first indication of a serious incident is the most safe & productive method not waiting till the situation escalates & requesting help that may be spread out a distance.....i have responded to many incidents..... staged & got sent home....no big deal...i would rather be there & not used then to be needed & be elswhere.       
 
68JK09,

you do make some very valid points.  It's a shame there are no more inter-agency drills.  I wish I could be more specific but all I can say there is effort being made at JFK to improve the relationship with FDNY. 
 
Would the PA ARFF Trucks respond if a plane came down just outside the airport grounds??
 
IRISH said:
Would the PA ARFF Trucks respond if a plane came down just outside the airport grounds??
Click to expand...
  Yes there is a "secondary response area" immediately around the perimeter of the airport, but off the top of my head I can't tell you the street boundaries.
 
Per Fire Apparatus Journal in the July/August 2013 Apparatus News Briefs

The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, the agency responsible for providing aircraft fire rescue services at JFK, and LaGuardia Airports in NYC, and Newark Liberty International Airport and Teterboro Airports in New Jersey has been fined 3.5 million dollars by the Federal Aviation Administration and has agreed to form a separate firefighting unit outside the Police Department.  The fire apparatus at the airports was staffed by Port Authority Police Officers.  The fines stem from a failure to show that these police officers were adequately trained and certified to fight fires.  The new fire department is to be in operation by March 31, 2014. ?FAJ Publications 2013

So can someone please explain to me what the old apparatus roster was,for these four airports and what the current roster is including make, model, unit identifier and number, pump size, water/foam/pkp if so equipped, haltron if so equipped, snozzle if so equipped?

I havent heard hyde nor hare of anything about this since it was posted any more info would be greatly appreciated.
 
If I remember correctly the issue was that the fire dept was being cross started by the police dept and know one was specifically detailed to fire only (I think cant remember 100%) the port authority also did not have adequate records of training etc. I believe they were mandated to have a dedicated fire department in staff at all times, not on duty cops that would respond to the fire if they were not on a police call. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think that's what I heard the issue was. Personally I would have liked to see the crash rescue go to fdny for the New York depts, which I think would have helped with the rivalry the port authority has with the fdny. As far as the vehicles I don't think anything has changed or is going to change.
 
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