CFD Snorkel Squads

[grumpy grizzly]

Acording to a post in Fire Apparatus Journal from Jim Regan Rosenbauer was the lone bidder. Checked out their site, they have NO 55' Snorkel units.GG

 

[sds416]

Had read somewhere that the plan was to build them 1 unit at a time, the front line piece would be taken out of service (company would be issued a spare), the snorkel device would be removed by the CFD shops and shipped to American LaFrance for it to be rebuilt, while the new squad was being completed at Rosenbauer, then the 2 would be married together at Rosenbauer's factory and delivered to CFD. 

 

[Bulldog]

That sounds like a short term solution that could create a lot of problems to a long-term problem!

 

[grumpy grizzly]

Two points. (1) There are NO spares. (2) ALF wants a minimum 4 peice order.

 

[Bulldog]

Had read somewhere that the plan was to build them 1 unit at a time, the front line piece would be taken out of service (company would be issued a spare), the snorkel device would be removed by the CFD shops and shipped to American LaFrance for it to be rebuilt, while the new squad was being completed at Rosenbauer, then the 2 would be married together at Rosenbauer's factory and delivered to CFD.

Two points. (1) There are NO spares. (2) ALF wants a minimum 4 peice order.

Sounds kind of like response number two negates the idea from response number one!  I wonder what's really going to happen?

 

[grumpy grizzly]

Personally I would elim inate the 55' snorkel. You get a Tower on a still/box (4E/3T). I would purchase 3 squad units to be used as rescue/manpower units, sorta like the old manpower squads. By the way the new NBC series "Chicago Fire" shows "Squad 3" a fictional unit using an old Haz-Mat unit. But some 'old school' minds are committed to the 55' snorkel. Oh well

 

[CFDMarshal]

Hey Grump, I agree. Let the truck company provide the ladder. It is a huge waste of money!

 

[Micael]

Has CFD ever considered buying or have gotten a taller snorkel for use as a work platform at some point? Like a 100 feet or more?

 

[grumpy grizzly]

On all working fires you get a 95' Rear Mount Tower, purchasing a seperate snorkel unit is a waste of money. The mayor is considering cutting companies/firefighters, a Snorkel should join the list of  the dinosaurs!

 

[Micael]

So any differences in capabilities between the snorkels and the towers aren't so to say in favor of the snorkels I take it.

It's interesting, over here snorkels have gotten more and more common to the point that I believe they're now in a majority among the aerials. In the US on the other hand snorkels do seem to be on the verge of extinction from what I can tell.
I wonder if it's differences in tactics or something like that which could explain it.

 

[Bulldog]

So any differences in capabilities between the snorkels and the towers aren't so to say in favor of the snorkels I take it.

It's interesting, over here snorkels have gotten more and more common to the point that I believe they're now in a majority among the aerials. In the US on the other hand snorkels do seem to be on the verge of extinction from what I can tell.
I wonder if it's differences in tactics or something like that which could explain it.

Where are they getting more and more snorkels?  You don't have your location in your information.  Where are they getting the snorkels from since the manufacture of them is no longer making them?

Both devices serve the same basic purpose which is providing elevated water stream capability.  Both are somewhat limited in their use for rescues, especially of larger numbers of people.  Some towers have an escape ladder which don't exist on snorkels.

 

[grumpy grizzly]

Overhead lines, electrical, phones, cable really limit their use. My house is really not accessible by a snorkel, it is a 2.5 wood story frame. Tower Ladder application would be rule of thumb, there are power lines running the complete length of the street. Snorkels=Dinosaurs, use only in specialized applications, would you allocate that money for a one or two year useage vs 2 quints or even 2 engines or a engine and a truck. The snorkel is useless if it sits in the house 363 days a year.

 

[Micael]

I'm overseas in Sweden. Snorkel type aerials are sold by Bronto Skylift and Metz. The working height that is most common in new builds is 32 meters/104 feet but shorter and taller ones exist.

Point taken grumpy grizzly, apart from in a few cities with street cars overhead wires is pretty much a thing of the past. So that might be one reason for the difference.

 

[10-3thebox]

Why is Chicago still so hung up on keeping using snorkels? (We know they were technically the first to operate them; but its now 2012 - and as was previously mentioned, there are multiple other aerial devices which respond to a fire).  Every photo I've seen a snorkel operating at has been with its master stream in operation.  Sure - its wheelbase is probably considerably tighter than a full size tower ladder, but still...can anybody give greater details on why the CFD is so intent on retaining the snorkel concept?

It sounds like its perhaps time for a thorough re-analysis of the snorkel's practicality with the CFD.

 

[10-3thebox]

Also - As I've become more interested in the apparatus of the CFD, I had a couple more questions:

1)  Has Chicago decided to finally "streamline" its engine and truck fleet?  (I'm referring to the exclusive use of Spartan chassis' and Crimson bodies).  I know for as long as I can remember they've been a pretty "mix-matched" department, for lack of better words.

2)  Are there any plans for the CFD to replace the batch of 1996 HME/LTI rearmount tower ladders?  (i.e. T/L 21).  These look like they're getting up there in age, and I'm sure have seen their fair share of vigerous work in the Windy City.

3)  Any other interesting CFD apparatus news, aside from the snorkel stuff?

-Thanks!

 

[XPFD3]

Some cities with large fleets operate various types of aerial devices based on experience.  In Philadelphia, the vast majority of the ladder companies have tillers but two companies run ladder towers and two companies still run 85' Snorkels.  The aerial devices on the Snorkels were originally delivered new in the late 70s / early 80s on American LaFrance chassis then rebuilt in the mid 90s and mounted on new KME chassis. FDNY operates tillers, rear mounts and tower ladders; Chicago operates rear mounts and ladder towers; Boston operates rear mounts and ladder towers yet LA City only operates tillers.  Whatever experience says works best.

 

[pauloghia]

If foreign companies build snorkel type devices, who doesn't Chicago and other cities that still have them within their department operations replace the old Pitman devices with one of those?

 

[grumpy grizzly]

Almost every Chicago Tower is getting really long in the tooth. The newest is TL-63 @ O'Hare and I beleive it is 4 yrs old. I have driven past houses that have thr TL and usually you see a spare. And as far as consolidation of apparatus, well bids control what is brought. The days of an all engine fleet such as Mack with FDNY are not as common anymore.

 

[Bulldog]

If foreign companies build snorkel type devices, who doesn't Chicago and other cities that still have them within their department operations replace the old Pitman devices with one of those?

The biggest reason is probably that none of the north American equipment builders that bid on contracts for Chicago and other cities uses the snorkel type equipment built by foreign companies!  There are a very limited number of Bronto's and Metz's in North America and those are mostly in Canada.

 

[pauloghia]

If foreign companies build snorkel type devices, who doesn't Chicago and other cities that still have them within their department operations replace the old Pitman devices with one of those?

The biggest reason is probably that none of the north American equipment builders that bid on contracts for Chicago and other cities uses the snorkel type equipment built by foreign companies!  There are a very limited number of Bronto's and Metz's in North America and those are mostly in Canada.

What about HME and Metz? Chicago has already ran HME cabs in the past and Metz has their North American presence. There's only so many times the CFD administration can rebuild an aerial device before it just completely wears out from age. If Metz builds a device similar to what they require, I don't understand what the issue is for them to be the only bidders. Then again if the aerial device is only infrequently used in their operations now, I can understand going with the cheaper option and refurbishing the current booms and approaching a company several years from now for newer units.