Engine 165 to Squad 165

This is a very strange topic, multiple members saying it will be a Squad. On the post where that pic came from, the person said "The Captain just handed these out to us, but said not to put them on yet" One guy from 85 truck said they will not be a squad but other members from 165 saying they are.
 
Obviously, I don't have any more insight than anybody else does about what's going on in the situation but I will bring up 1 point.  I find it strange that just because the captain of an engine company requests a Squad body pumper to carry their hazmat gear he gets it!  There are lots of hazmat engine companies and if one of them could request a different type of body for their engine I would think all the others would start doing that to.  Ill be interested see how this turns out.
 
Bulldog said:
Obviously, I don't have any more insight than anybody else does about what's going on in the situation but I will bring up 1 point.  I find it strange that just because the captain of an engine company requests a Squad body pumper to carry their hazmat gear he gets it!  There are lots of hazmat engine companies and if one of them could request a different type of body for their engine I would think all the others would start doing that to.  Ill be interested see how this turns out.
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Agreed. I wouldn't be surprised if Engine 274 gets one also, I can understand E44 and 250 not getting one because they are newer engines.
 
Your gonna have to know soon if this was going to happen. All of those guys would have to go through Rescue school.  Also I can't see them just making everyone in that company a squad man. You might also have some guys in the engine their whole career that might not be interested in truck work. 

If it was to happen I could also see them transfering in guys.  Otherwise you would have a very inexperienced crew that all just went through the classes.

Also, do they carry anything different then the other Has-tech engines that they would need the spare room on the engine instead of the second piece? Or is it just like everything else where the job just keeps adding tools and such to our inventory to carry.
 
I'm not sure how the fdny works but I would think that when a job that comes up that gets a higher pay grade the job would have to go out to bid before guys just took it, but like I Said I don't know how the fdny works and it is a tricky situation with the guys assigned there and finding the other assignments. I agree they would be a very rookie crew on the rescue side. This story is pretty interesting some say yes some say no I think it's a wait and see until an  official dept statement is issued or that rig backs in the garage with squad 165 lettered on it 
 
Rumors are rumors.  But needs exists for a squad and additional units to eventually be organized - on SI.

Some SI facts and concerns:

  -  350,000 lived in SI in 1984 when Rescue 5 was reorganized
  -  SI current population 480,000
  -  Since 1984, population SI increased 130,000 with only 1 truck (L 87 in 1987) and 1 engine (E 168 in 2005) added
  -  FDNY incident response times for SI were worse than any other boro in 2013
                                    SI      BK      QN      MN      BX
        Structural fires      4:30    3:37    4:25    4:14    4:12
        Medicals              4:35    3:55    4:28    4:26    4:26

    -  SI serious incidents (all hands and multiples) increased 38% since 1992 (oldest year reported on FDNY website) - all other boros' dropped
                                    SI      BK      QN      MN      BX
        1993                    125    1440    732      784      812
        2013                    172      815    563      428      469

    -  Squad 1 response to SI Tottenville locations approximately 25 miles (35 minutes or more depending on traffic)
      Squad 252 response to SI Tottenville boxes approximately 31 miles (50 minutes or more)
   
    -  There are boxes on SI that take 5 minutes for 1st due truck to respond to

    -  There are boxes on SO that take BCs more than 10 minutes to get to responding from quarters

    -  SI is still operating with 3 battalions to cover the entire island - the same number of chiefs it had since 1930

SI will soon be half a million population and will continue to grow.  Traffic will get worse.  SI FDNY incidents will increase.  Additional FDNY resources for SI are dependent on a bridge. As SI workloads increase, there will be increasing occurrences when Rescue 5 and Squad 1 are not available (already working) and simultaneous fires and serious incidents will not have special units available.

 
"mack", that is an excellent report on exactly why a Squad Co is needed for Staten Island. Your figures clearly show that.

If Staten Island were a city by itself, it would be more than twice the size of any of Connecticuts largest cities of Hartford, Bridgeport, or New Haven. Maybe even add all three together to come up with Staten Islands current population. I believe Staten Island is larger than Newark, NJ (New Jerseys largest city) and if Staten Island were a city by itself, it would rank roughly the 30th largest city in the entire country.

  For Squad 1 to travel to parts of Staten Island, a distance of 25 miles, is like having a piece of fire apparatus responding from Norwich, Ct (where I retired from as a FF) to Hartford. That has never happened and would be considered an outrageous idea. Yet as we know, it happens many times a month when Squad 1 is assigned to respond to Staten Island.

  I'm just an "outsider" looking in. I am vaguely familiar with the New York City area and it's fire service. But those facts presented clearly show the need is there. "mack" has presented some pretty tough facts and figures to argue against.
 
Willy D - Even back in the 1970s and 1980s, SI needed more firehouses and more companies.  The last battalion my father was assigned to in the mid 1980s, the 23rd battalion, had a response area so large, he could get 5 or 6 runs on a tour, and never reach the location because the boxes were miles from the 23rd Bn's Great Kills firehouse.  It took over 10 minutes to get to many  locations.  It was even worse responding back to boxes in New Dorp and Richmondtown if they were out of quarters already.  As a chief back then, he thought SI immediately needed a rescue company (finally organized in 1984), another battalion chief, a division (the 8th had been disbanded and the 12th Division had to respond from Brooklyn) and firehouses in Rossville (finally E 168 in 2005) and the SI Mall area.  And that was 30 years ago.

Limited SI fire units frequently resulted in greater fire loss. 

The church from the Godfather I baptism scene was a large, beautiful Catholic Church located on a orphanage in Tottenville, SI's South Shore.  The Combo (Combined Fire Company 131 which was Engine 151 and Ladder 76) had the job one night not too long after the movie won an Oscar.  They got in rapidly but were by themselves for a long time.  A simple boiler room fire just got away from a company that was not really an engine or a truck company.  It took time for additional units to arrive, help locate the source of the fire, and extinguish.  The entire church burned to the ground. 

Other SI buildings were lost but fortunately there seemed to be very few incidents were the loss of life was claimed to be related to the lack of SI fire companies.  I think a fire loss did contribute to finally opening Engine 168. 
 
Being a member of Engine 168, there was NO loss of life that contributed to the establishment of the engine..it was due to response times particularly to a 4th alarm fire that occurred directly behind the firehouse of 168..the response times exceeded 5 mins
 
Very interesting facts indeed, everyone thanks for them. Mack, you are absolutely right about the 23rd Bn.'s coverage area. They cover roughly have of the entire borough! Great Kills to Tottenville is no short trip. - and over 5 mins for that 4 alarm job - insane. Thinking about it, both 164/84 and 151/76 have incredible distances for that one. Can you imagine not having a first due truck arrive for around 5 mins? SI is the closest thing to a rural setting this city has. On the South Shore, woods envelope the landscape. Windy curvy roads for miles (Amboy Rd.) and Arthur Kill Rd.'s are good examples right around the back of Mt. Loretto State Forest - where that church is. The chauffeurs of the companies down here have their work cut out for them - get to the remote location, quick.
 
Joeyengine said:
Being a member of Engine 168, there was NO loss of life that contributed to the establishment of the engine..it was due to response times particularly to a 4th alarm fire that occurred directly behind the firehouse of 168..the response times exceeded 5 mins
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Thanks Joeyengine.  I just did not know any of the specifics but knew there was a fire close to an unoccupied firehouse and they finally organized E 168 - a good new company. 

I do remember a fire, maybe early 1980s, a townhouse I think off Huguenot Ave (maybe Arden or Rossville) close to Arthur Kill Rd, owner reported a kitchen fire, then went back inside to remove personal belongings, a heavy fog morning, took E 164 and L 84 a long time to get to in the fog, sadly the owner never made it back out, there was some questioning in the SI Advance newspaper about arrival times and number of units - but not much follow-up.  The engine and truck did a good job finding him right away and making a good stop before additional units arrived. 


Arthur Kill Rd boxes were always "bad boxes" to get.  A lot of large old homes and structures and a long time to respond for Huguenot and Tottenville companies.  Charleston was an old 1800s manufacturing center (called "Kreischerville") with a lot of good size former factory buildings.  There were wooden barges and old tug boats and ships in the Kill Van Kull river that were always all day "all hands" with long stretches. Port Mobil terminal was a major catastrophe waiting to happen.  Nassau Smelting & Refining Company close to the Outerbridge Crossing had large industrial buildings to manufacture wire products.  There was the garbage dump area with many stubborn garbage fires.  A Lt (Charles Hunt - RIP) from Engine 166 died one night in the 1970s falling off a bridge after a fire back in the land fill area off Arthur Kill Rd. There was an orphanage off Arthur Kill Road in Annadale called St Michael's  that was the location of countless 10-92s, nuisance fires and serious structure fires before it finally closed.  The historic Sandy Grounds buildings were close by.  A lot of old schools, churches, former manufacturing buildings.  Many new housing developments. And large wooded areas that had the potential to be multiple alarm brush fires on dry windy days.

I am glad Engine 168 was organized. 
 
LT Charlie Hunt ENG*166 RIP had been a "WAR YEARS" FF in LAD*146 & TCU 732 before Promotion to LT....fell through a damaged pier & drowned....CONTINUED RIP. 
 
Lt Charles Hunt Engine 166 - LODD - April 15, 1977 - E 166 and L 86 were at the end of Meredith Avenue.  I believe it was an old pier that used to be used to transport workers in a launch or ferry that had both rotted and burned. The companies had put out the fire and the engine and truck officers were doing a final check before going back to quarters. It was late at night and dark.  They were checking the pier. Lt Hunt went thru the weakened pier in the darkness and fell into the murky water.  He had on all his gear and never surfaced.  The engine and truck members tried hard to find him but could not.  Dark night, dark waters, no visibility, deep water.  My father was working in the 23rd Bn on a night tour.  The Bn got a phone call from the dispatcher who said a few words "Chief - Engine 166's LT fell into the water and they can't find him".  Rescue 5 had not yet been reorganized (1984) and Rescue 2 had to respond in from Brooklyn. Lt Hunt was a good officer and well-liked.  RIP

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FA0B1FF93F59157493C3AB178FD85F438785F9
 
This discussion whether Engine 165 will become a Squad is truly fascinating.  So many people have contributed convincing pieces of evidence and testimony and still the ultimate result is unknown.  Could someone offer some background about what Squads do in the NYC area?

The original Squads (21, 22, and 24) were manpower units to cover staffing shortages during WWII.  (Coincidentally, does anyone know why there was no Squad 23?)

NYPD Squads were also manpower units to provide lots of bodies quickly to potentially escalating situations such as civil disturbances.

The 9 Squads of the 1960?s and 1970?s also supplemented manpower at fires.  Some were converted to Engines and Ladders when disbanded.

Today?s Squad 1 appeared when Engine 269 was being closed, introducing the concept of saving an Engine by not calling it an Engine because it has additional responsibilities.  A similar approach was used to try and save Engine 212.

In this time frame, an Engine that was operating without a working pump was also ID?d as a Squad by dispatchers.

The next 6 Squads of the late 1990?s were also Engine companies with additional capabilities.  No Squads were created for Staten Island.  What did the other boros need for Squad services that SI did not?

Does assigning additional duties to an Engine on an island with a shortage of Engines enhance the coverage and availability shortages?  Won?t they be less available as Engines as a result?  Or is the lack of Squad capabilities a greater deficiency such that one Engine can be spared for Squad duties?

Would realigning or relocating the existing 7 Squads automatically create a shortage or a gap elsewhere?

Everyone seems to be saying that SI needs a Squad, except maybe the FDNY for the last 16 years.  What is the big picture about Squads?
 
The yellow and blue 165 frontpieces made their debut a few years ago when the first round of squad 165 rumors began. Nothing more then fun pot stirring.
A lot of HMTU engine members have been to FDNY rescue school because they are in SOC and are able to be detailed to the rescues and squads and vice versa
 
The main idea behind the creation of squads was to add depth to the hazmat resources. The squads carry both engine and truck tools and are capable of performing rescues, high angle , low angle and confined space. If a rescue is not available a squad can be substituted in a lot of situations. Members of engines and trucks so not have the special training that squads and rescues have. During the last couple big storms when reserve engines and ladders were put in service, they put a reserve squad in service on SI. Also on a 10-75 an extra engine, truck(as fast unit), squad and rescue. When the closest squad is a half hour out to some places, I would say one is needed somewhere closer. As far as moving a current squad to SI I would think that would t be a good idea, they all seem to be doing a good amount of runs. I think moving units is a thing of the past, today the politicians get a lot of flak from community leaders and groups who are going to be losing protection. 
 
The main idea behind the War Years Squads 1 to 9 was to supplement manpower & Unit availability in the busier areas that is why they were only located in certain areas.....after 1998 when the current Squads were organized in addition to supplementing manpower & availability they also became responsible for HAZ Mat duties therefore were then assigned to all areas of NYC regardless of Fire activity....i would say that even if it is a 25 mile response it meets the criteria of having one assigned when called for.....not really a proper solution but i guess more of a CYA by the bean counters....also current info from a source in the know says no Squad 165.
 
"....also current info from a source in the know says no Squad 165 "

Where have we heard that before??
 
Based on who posted that info prior to your post, most would be confident that it is, as stated
 
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