FDNY fire marshals

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chicago2008

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Hello, do FDNY fire marshals work with NYPD detectives? If so how common is it? In the Chicago area the Office of Fire Investigation (OFI) works with CPD bomb and arson detectives.
 
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ta176

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To some extent we do work with detectives. When an arson fire is detected F.M. files a complaint report with the P.D.. We do most of the interviews our self with the victims or possible witnesses to the crime or even if fire is accidental, such as food on the stove or electrical. I had one fire where 2 people died, It was a women and her child that were dead, but it was a murder suicide, because the mom started the fire. The detective that had the case informed me that it would be left open because it was a murder and suicide. But as F.M., I closed the case because of the evidence pointing to the suicide. As a FF for 24 years in a busy area, I took some of the knowledge I learned in firefighting into becoming a F.M.. It definitely was helpful in the transition.
 
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chicago2008

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ta176 said:
To some extent we do work with detectives. When an arson fire is detected F.M. files a complaint report with the P.D.. We do most of the interviews our self with the victims or possible witnesses to the crime or even if fire is accidental, such as food on the stove or electrical. I had one fire where 2 people died, It was a women and her child that were dead, but it was a murder suicide, because the mom started the fire. The detective that had the case informed me that it would be left open because it was a murder and suicide. But as F.M., I closed the case because of the evidence pointing to the suicide. As a FF for 24 years in a busy area, I took some of the knowledge I learned in firefighting into becoming a F.M.. It definitely was helpful in the transition.
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Sounds like fire Marshalls work with NYPD detectives on a somewhat regular basis. Sounds like if there is a fatality then NYPD homicide is notified/involved?
 
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chicago2008

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ta176 said:
To some extent we do work with detectives. When an arson fire is detected F.M. files a complaint report with the P.D.. We do most of the interviews our self with the victims or possible witnesses to the crime or even if fire is accidental, such as food on the stove or electrical. I had one fire where 2 people died, It was a women and her child that were dead, but it was a murder suicide, because the mom started the fire. The detective that had the case informed me that it would be left open because it was a murder and suicide. But as F.M., I closed the case because of the evidence pointing to the suicide. As a FF for 24 years in a busy area, I took some of the knowledge I learned in firefighting into becoming a F.M.. It definitely was helpful in the transition.
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I would imagine the Fire Marshalls also talk to the companies that were on the scene?
 
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ta176

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Another key person is the Chief on the scene who may have made the fire suspicious, 10-41, and the reason behind that. Sometimes it could be the amount of fire upon arrival or a witness that saw something and told the Chief. Marshal's pretty much respond later than the Co.'s that responded initially to the fire, so we miss what the first arriving Co.'s actually saw. So we pretty much have to collect all the information and try to reconstruct what happened there. Some fires require an extensive investigation, because every fire is different.
An unusual fire I had was the first real cold day in a Kosher meat market. They use salt to season or cure the meat. They had hot air heat and this was the first time they put it on. The salt had eroded the duct and left a sizeable hole in it and when the heat kicked on, it started the fire in the ceiling.
There is also a lot of paper work involved describing the cause and origin of the fire, interviews with responding Co.'s and tenants or witnesses. After the fire is out our work just begins.
 
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ta176

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We do get called to criminal court a lot more than civil court because of the criminal act of arson. We have to describe the evidence we found regarding the cause and origin of the fire. We gather evidence if there was a flammable liquid pour and bring it to the P.D. laboratory that analyses the evidence for an accelerant that might have been used to start the fire.
One fire I was assigned had five separate points of origin remote from each other which is usually an very good indication of arson.
Back in the 90's we had a lot of car fires because that was the only way to get out of a lease, and that was a fire in the car. People would lease a vehicle, then find out car was a lemon or they no longer could afford the lease payments. So they would torch the car Friday night and claim car was driven Sat. morning and then stolen. Meanwhile I have the paper work from the responding units showing car was on fire Friday night. After all evidence is gathered, I even have pictures taken by our photo unit to further prove the vehicle fire, document the Vin# and or license plate. I then present the information I've gathered to the DA's office who makes a determination upon the arrest, due to the evidence I have accumulated. Upon arrest I may testify in the Grand Jury and if indited and goes to trial I would testify at the trial. As I said before we go to work after the fire is out and sometimes gathering the evidence, statements from victims or witnesses is very time consuming, so sometimes arrests are made several months after the fire where arson is indicated.
 
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chicago2008

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ta176 said:
We do get called to criminal court a lot more than civil court because of the criminal act of arson. We have to describe the evidence we found regarding the cause and origin of the fire. We gather evidence if there was a flammable liquid pour and bring it to the P.D. laboratory that analyses the evidence for an accelerant that might have been used to start the fire.
One fire I was assigned had five separate points of origin remote from each other which is usually an very good indication of arson.
Back in the 90's we had a lot of car fires because that was the only way to get out of a lease, and that was a fire in the car. People would lease a vehicle, then find out car was a lemon or they no longer could afford the lease payments. So they would torch the car Friday night and claim car was driven Sat. morning and then stolen. Meanwhile I have the paper work from the responding units showing car was on fire Friday night. After all evidence is gathered, I even have pictures taken by our photo unit to further prove the vehicle fire, document the Vin# and or license plate. I then present the information I've gathered to the DA's office who makes a determination upon the arrest, due to the evidence I have accumulated. Upon arrest I may testify in the Grand Jury and if indited and goes to trial I would testify at the trial. As I said before we go to work after the fire is out and sometimes gathering the evidence, statements from victims or witnesses is very time consuming, so sometimes arrests are made several months after the fire where arson is indicated.
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Thanks, just listened to an episode of Chicago's bravest stories, that featured someone from CFD's OFI. They spend allot of time at computers typing up reports. I'm sure FDNY fire marshalls also spend time typing up reports. He also mentions that when he testifies in Civil court the plaintiffs attorney has an agenda.
 
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chicago2008

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ta176 said:
We do get called to criminal court a lot more than civil court because of the criminal act of arson. We have to describe the evidence we found regarding the cause and origin of the fire. We gather evidence if there was a flammable liquid pour and bring it to the P.D. laboratory that analyses the evidence for an accelerant that might have been used to start the fire.
One fire I was assigned had five separate points of origin remote from each other which is usually an very good indication of arson.
Back in the 90's we had a lot of car fires because that was the only way to get out of a lease, and that was a fire in the car. People would lease a vehicle, then find out car was a lemon or they no longer could afford the lease payments. So they would torch the car Friday night and claim car was driven Sat. morning and then stolen. Meanwhile I have the paper work from the responding units showing car was on fire Friday night. After all evidence is gathered, I even have pictures taken by our photo unit to further prove the vehicle fire, document the Vin# and or license plate. I then present the information I've gathered to the DA's office who makes a determination upon the arrest, due to the evidence I have accumulated. Upon arrest I may testify in the Grand Jury and if indited and goes to trial I would testify at the trial. As I said before we go to work after the fire is out and sometimes gathering the evidence, statements from victims or witnesses is very time consuming, so sometimes arrests are made several months after the fire where arson is indicated.
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Do you also deal with private sector investigators, such as insurance companies?
 
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ta176

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A few of the private sector investigators are former FDNY Fire Marshal's here in NY. When I retired from the FM's office I worked for a while in the private sector, but came to the conclusion it wasn't for me. I didn't like someone making a call on the origin and I come up with the real cause. As I've said before, working in a busy fire Co. for a few years you get a good education regarding fires and especially arson. I remember when I first got on the Fire Dept. and we caught a fire and somebody said it was a molotov cocktail that started the fire. I had no idea what he was talking about and he explained it to me what a molotov cocktail was. I was a naive boy that lived in the sticks. My career turned out to be one of my better moves in my lifetime. They don't call it a Brotherhood for no reason.
 
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chicago2008

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So if a fatal fire deemed arson,then fire marshals will work with NYPD detectives? Finally do certain alarm levels warrant a fire Marshal to automatically respond? Thanks.
 
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ta176

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The Fire marshal usually determines the cause of the fire, be it arson or accidental, so we pretty much do all the work and the P.D. rides on our coattails. We share info with them, but we are the main investigators. If fire is arson we fill out a complaint form at the local precinct to indicate that. Any evidence we find, such as flammable liquid pour, we would take it to the P.D. lab for analysis and usually get a written report on the evidence that we submit. The Chief responding to the fire usually gives the 10-45 code, meaning a victim was found in the fire or possible removed prior to their arrival, with that 10-45 code there are 1-4 #'s describing severity of the injury. And yes a lot of paper work is involved with any fire we respond to. Usually the Chief at the fire would determine if fire is suspicious and if so we would respond.
As any old timer would attest the Fire Dept. was a necessary evil. Any thing done in the fire house we all chipped in to get it done. We even had to change the oil in the rigs by our self. As time went on things changed for the better, but I hate to say it 911 put FDNY on the map. People had a real chance to see what we do and how far we go and started to appreciate us.
One last thing, when I became a F.M. in 92 all paper work was done on a electric type writer, we then purchased "ourselves" word processors which made doing paper work so much easier. I got out in 99 and now everything is done by computer which I wasn't exposed to. So I don't really know if anything has changed from the way we did it back in the day. Maybe a newbe could chime in and let us know if much has changed.
 
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jtsjc1

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A childhood friend of my dad was a FDNY Fire Marshal back in the War Years. I'm not sure what borough he worked. He was a great guy and a close family friend.
 
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nfd2004

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jtsjc1 said:
A childhood friend of my dad was a FDNY Fire Marshal back in the War Years. I'm not sure what borough he worked. He was a great guy and a close family friend.
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Back in those FDNY War Years, the number of fires was staggering.
In order to try and investigate those fires, the city put into effect what they called "The Red Caps", in which an additional 300 fire marshals were added.

Those added fire marshals were put to work in some of the busiest areas of the city which were seeing the largest number of building fires

It certainly DID have a very positive impact on cutting down on the number of serious building fires throughout the city.
Although the 1980s were still a busy time for building fires - compared to the very busy FDNY War Years, those fire marshals continued to do a great job.

Thank you "ta176" for your part in telling us about your job working as one of those FDNY fire marshals.

Most recently, a friend of mine just became a fire marshal in a department here in Connecticut.
He was a career firefighter who put in to fill an opening for a fire marshal.
His required training was 2 - 3 days a week, including classroom and hands on work
That lasted for a period of about one year.
The written test for that final exam lasted 5 hours, which as I understand it, was broken down into separate testing days.

I found out it sure isn't easy to become a fire marshal.
I guess they don't just give these jobs away.

I remember a saying that some of us firefighters used to have, as we liked to go to fires.
It was; "You light 'em - We fight 'em".
But most likely these days, if "you light 'em" - "they gonna get you"
These guys are good and they know their stuff.

A Big THANKS to ALL of Our Fire Marshalls throughout our Country for the job you do.
 
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ta176

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The good thing about the Marshals in FDNY was that we had Police Powers because we were arresting Felons because of an Arson arrest, so we carried a piece and had handcuffs, which most people had no idea of the power we had. When we made our investigation we just said Fire Dept. and Firemen. That put everybody at ease.
 
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nfd2004

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ta176 said:
The good thing about the Marshals in FDNY was that we had Police Powers because we were arresting Felons because of an Arson arrest, so we carried a piece and had handcuffs, which most people had no idea of the power we had. When we made our investigation we just said Fire Dept. and Firemen. That put everybody at ease.
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That was something that I forgot to mention about fire marshals in Connecticut, and probably most other places too.
They do NOT have arrest powers and usually work with the local police when an arrest is about to take place.

Included in their duties here are building inspections and code enforcement.
 
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jtsjc1

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A childhood friend of my dad was a FDNY Fire Marshal back in the War Years. I'm not sure what borough he worked. He was a great guy and a close family friend
ta176 said:
The good thing about the Marshals in FDNY was that we had Police Powers because we were arresting Felons because of an Arson arrest, so we carried a piece and had handcuffs, which most people had no idea of the power we had. When we made our investigation we just said Fire Dept. and Firemen. That put everybody at ease.
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I do remember my dad's friend carrying. He had a .38 snub he carried in a waistband holster. He would often leave it on top of our refrigerator when he came over.
 
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