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NFD2004 asked me to post this earlier today
My younger Buff years
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mercurygrandmarquis1 said:NFD2004 asked me to post this earlier today
Thank You Zack (MGM) for posting that picture. You always take care of things for me.
The Chief and Turk are correct. It is the location of what is now known as the "Bathgate Industrial Park". The Cross Bronx Expressway and the quarters of Eng 46/Lad 27 can also be seen. I also believe that location was where the filming of much of the movie "Wolfen" was made.
I remember seeing that area around the time that this photo was probadly taken. The many vacant lots were where buildings once stood. The buildings that were left were all burned out. About six or eight square blocks of nothing but burned out shells and vacant lots. Probadly more fires in those few blocks than many firefighters faced in their entire career.
And as "Mack" says above, the fires continued to burn for several more years into the early 80s. One of those areas was the West Bronx. Those companies picked up from where others left off. Its a safe bet that myself, and my other buff buddies saw fires on every trip there. I would still come home with the smell of smoke on my clothes and in my hair, (when I had more). And most of that was from the fires of the West Bronx in the 1980s (West of Webster Ave). I really don't know if this time frame was considered the "War Years", but those companies sure caught their share of the workload.
The movie Wolfen was filmed around East 170 St & Charlotte St. When they blew up the apartment house there were cameras set up in different directions to cover the collapse from several blocks away. They were hoping to have the their homemade 'church' standing & in camera view once the dust of the collapse cleared up. I was there when they did that & had a headache for several days after that.
Atlas said:
Thanks Atlas. I knew that the movie had been made in the Charlotte St and 170 St, but what I wasn't aware of was that was a "Homemade" Church. I always thought that was from that Third Ave area of what is now the Bathgate Industrial Park.
Mack,
Good discussion here. I respect your opinion...but....
NFD, you are correct...West Bronx became the busy area in the late 70's and early 80's...but...
The picture of the Bathgate Industrial Area is a case in point. It really stretches further to the south, encompasssing the section from the railroad along Park Avenue to 3d Avenue, from the late quarters of Rescue 3 (old 46/27) to the new quarters of R3.
In the early 1960's that area resembled the Lower East Side of Manhattan. Bathgate Avenue was sidewalk pushcarts from Tremont Ave. south to Claremont Parkway. Old law tenements, built in the 1890's lined both sides of the street. Duplicate the buildings on Washington Ave, 3d Ave...etc.
On payday, my parents would pick up my old man's check at the firehouse, cash it at a bank in Belmont, and shop along Bathgate. It was a bazaar of shopping, anything a family could need...and cheap.
Between 1967 and 1975 this area was leveled to rubble by fire. That's why 46/27 were top ten (or five?) in the FDNY those years. By 1980, you could stand on Tremont Avenue and see all the way down to Claremont Pkwy...not a building stood in the way. It's why there is a Bathgate Industrial Park today, or new quarters there for 46/27 and R3. From such complete devastation has come growth.
Such devastation was never seen in the West Bronx, nor in other places of the City after 1976. Busy areas ? Of course. Brave firefighters? Always. The devastation of the War Years? Nope.
I hold to my opinion. I saw it....1964 -1977.....The War Years.
Good discussion here. I respect your opinion...but....
NFD, you are correct...West Bronx became the busy area in the late 70's and early 80's...but...
The picture of the Bathgate Industrial Area is a case in point. It really stretches further to the south, encompasssing the section from the railroad along Park Avenue to 3d Avenue, from the late quarters of Rescue 3 (old 46/27) to the new quarters of R3.
In the early 1960's that area resembled the Lower East Side of Manhattan. Bathgate Avenue was sidewalk pushcarts from Tremont Ave. south to Claremont Parkway. Old law tenements, built in the 1890's lined both sides of the street. Duplicate the buildings on Washington Ave, 3d Ave...etc.
On payday, my parents would pick up my old man's check at the firehouse, cash it at a bank in Belmont, and shop along Bathgate. It was a bazaar of shopping, anything a family could need...and cheap.
Between 1967 and 1975 this area was leveled to rubble by fire. That's why 46/27 were top ten (or five?) in the FDNY those years. By 1980, you could stand on Tremont Avenue and see all the way down to Claremont Pkwy...not a building stood in the way. It's why there is a Bathgate Industrial Park today, or new quarters there for 46/27 and R3. From such complete devastation has come growth.
Such devastation was never seen in the West Bronx, nor in other places of the City after 1976. Busy areas ? Of course. Brave firefighters? Always. The devastation of the War Years? Nope.
I hold to my opinion. I saw it....1964 -1977.....The War Years.
The units that were extremely busy prior to 1977-78 generally had much much smaller first alarm districts than the units who got busy in the eighties. That was even prior to second sections, TCUs, and Squads acting as Engines. Here is one example. E 217 used to be first due at Gates and Lewis. When the second section was formed, they became second due and the existing second due was taken off the box. E 214 wouldn't go to that corner on a postcard ( MEANING NEVER) even though their quarters are 5 short blocks away. It was like that through most of the busy areas except for the area south of E 290. Those units rarely went more than 10 blocks on a response.
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17 Truck lost a lot of boxes in 1968 when L55 was organized at Park & 159th and even more when L55 moved south to Melrose & 155th St. in 1989. Ladders 19, 29, 42, 44 and even 49 also lost boxes. In fact, before 1968, L17 was 1st due truck all the way up to box 2300 @Concourse Vill. W. & 156th St. The Mott Haven & Melrose areas were so busy that L17 still got a second section in 1970 after having lost a third of their 1st alarm boxes 2 years before.
3511 said:
Don't forget that insurance laws, lack of investigation, etc allowed building owners to "cash in" very well if they had a fire. This (aided by vacant apartments leading to decay of housing) contributed to the building losses. Commercial property was not exempt. Almost every weekend it seemed there would be third alarms or greater in taxpayers mainly in Bronx, Brooklyn, and Queens. And these were when a third alarm was a FIRE - "all hands heavily engaged", saws heard working on every progress report.
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Awesome stuff nfd2004!
I'm a bit late joining this forum - but this thread is amazing!
I'm a bit late joining this forum - but this thread is amazing!
10-3thebox said:
Glad to have you "10-3". All of us here have basically the same interest. "That of the FDNY, the busiest fire dept in the World". We are Buffs, Active and Retired firefighters, dispatchers, Ems and even a few police officers, from all over including the FDNY.
Whats made this thread so amazing is the amount of stories, videos, and photos that many of the members have provided. Some of the stories are from the FDNY Members themselves that were there fighting these fires during those Extremely Busy War Years. Others were from Buffs that were there and remember what they saw. And others are from guys that rode with their fathers who were on the job during that time when they were younger.
There is also another thread on here called "The Other War Years" in the National Section. I hope to tell a few stories about the Hartford Fire Dept on there soon, as "10-3", I'm sure that you'll be able to relate to some of them.
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I tried to attach a couple quick shots from my brief (and only) visit to 82 Engine / 31 Truck back in May of 2008; however I don't think it worked. Anyways, as I remember it, I pulled down Intervale Ave. to find Tower Ladder 31 out front of quarters with their tower in the raised position. As I was thinking "Perfect photo op!", I grabbed the camera and headed over to take a few photos of the piece.
As I snapped some shots the tower ladder's bucket was positioned near the firehouse flag on the front apparatus apron. All of a sudden, I witnessed one of the members in the bucket (possibly the probie?) get an entire bucket of soap tossed on him from somewhere above! The gentlemen in the bucket asked me to take a photo of them, however I can't recall their names.
The guys there that day were great, inviting me inside to view the apparatus bay and look around. Since I've read Report from Engine Co. 82 a dozen or so times, the atmosphere was that much more exciting for me. I literally had a recount of segments of the book as I stood there! A great experience - however I'm sure nothing like the authentic WAR YEARS buff days...
As I snapped some shots the tower ladder's bucket was positioned near the firehouse flag on the front apparatus apron. All of a sudden, I witnessed one of the members in the bucket (possibly the probie?) get an entire bucket of soap tossed on him from somewhere above! The gentlemen in the bucket asked me to take a photo of them, however I can't recall their names.
The guys there that day were great, inviting me inside to view the apparatus bay and look around. Since I've read Report from Engine Co. 82 a dozen or so times, the atmosphere was that much more exciting for me. I literally had a recount of segments of the book as I stood there! A great experience - however I'm sure nothing like the authentic WAR YEARS buff days...
I was thinking of the different ways FDNY leadership tried to control the tremendously high run totals . In the late 60s, they installed second sections in busy engines, ladders and battalions. 1970 brought interchange, adaptive response, TCUs, DRBs, a new division (17th), new battalions. Many of the TCUs then became companies. The city then ran out of money as the 70s progressed. A ton of units were disbanded. Combined fire companies (combos) were created. To balance out response loads, response districts were changed. Manning reductions. Sad that the budget made decisions.
811,
Good point. There was a lot of man made "lightening" during those years.
Why, though, would a landlord wish to torch his property to collect the insurance?
Very simple. The cost of escalating property taxes, utilities, and contractors (plumbers, plasterers, HVAC, ect,.) was greater than could be collected in rent. Every thing goes up but the rent. At some point, the landlord says "I'm outta here".
Oddly, the early history of Bronx landlords is a stellar one. They gambled and invested in the early part of the 20th century to build beautiful buildings that provided millions of immigrants a chance to move up on the economic ladder. They made a nice living from these investments, sometimes for generations, and kept their properties nice to live in. I know.
By the mid-60's these traditional landlords were smart enough to have sold out. Those who came after were the ones who exploited the insurance laws and, in many cases, their own people.
Rent Control was repealed in Boston, Philly, Cincinnati, Chicago, etc, after WWII. Housing there boomed.
New York City did not repeal Rent Control (still hasn't.) Any wonder why the Bronx (or Bushwick, etc.) burned, and there was a housing crisis within two generations of WWII?
No incentive to build or maintain property ...guess what happens? Will we ever learn?
Good point. There was a lot of man made "lightening" during those years.
Why, though, would a landlord wish to torch his property to collect the insurance?
Very simple. The cost of escalating property taxes, utilities, and contractors (plumbers, plasterers, HVAC, ect,.) was greater than could be collected in rent. Every thing goes up but the rent. At some point, the landlord says "I'm outta here".
Oddly, the early history of Bronx landlords is a stellar one. They gambled and invested in the early part of the 20th century to build beautiful buildings that provided millions of immigrants a chance to move up on the economic ladder. They made a nice living from these investments, sometimes for generations, and kept their properties nice to live in. I know.
By the mid-60's these traditional landlords were smart enough to have sold out. Those who came after were the ones who exploited the insurance laws and, in many cases, their own people.
Rent Control was repealed in Boston, Philly, Cincinnati, Chicago, etc, after WWII. Housing there boomed.
New York City did not repeal Rent Control (still hasn't.) Any wonder why the Bronx (or Bushwick, etc.) burned, and there was a housing crisis within two generations of WWII?
No incentive to build or maintain property ...guess what happens? Will we ever learn?
I think in the book called "When the Bronx Burned" by John Finucane he talks about that very subject of landlords burning their own buildings. For those that have not seen that book, on the cover is a picture apparently taken during the War Years. It shows three seperate columns of smoke rising, from three seperate building fires going at the same time. All seem to be within a few blocks of each other.
Those buildings were built a brick at a time. They might have been a hundred or two hundred years old. They were built to last. They probadly would have been around for another two hundred years. But they were destroyed and are now history. All because some greedy landlord wanted to make a quick buck and didn't care who he hurt doing it.
And places like Bushwick in Brooklyn, with their row frames and attached cocklofts. They went even quicker. I remember the first fire I ever buffed in Brooklyn was a row frame on Evergreen Ave (Bushwick). I got there pretty quick and the fire went to a second alarm. The entire block of those row frames was going in a matter of minutes. Less than a year later, that block was just one big vacant lot.
Those buildings were built a brick at a time. They might have been a hundred or two hundred years old. They were built to last. They probadly would have been around for another two hundred years. But they were destroyed and are now history. All because some greedy landlord wanted to make a quick buck and didn't care who he hurt doing it.
And places like Bushwick in Brooklyn, with their row frames and attached cocklofts. They went even quicker. I remember the first fire I ever buffed in Brooklyn was a row frame on Evergreen Ave (Bushwick). I got there pretty quick and the fire went to a second alarm. The entire block of those row frames was going in a matter of minutes. Less than a year later, that block was just one big vacant lot.
Back in the war years landlords were paid for listing with the city vacant apartment so they made money if the apartments were filled or empty. Also if a building was going to be rehabbed, if there were fires with in the structure during rehab operations, the owner could receive additional federal funds. But the fires also made it easier for the constuction workers to remove old wiring & pipes, FDNY opened up the walls, ceilings, & floors for them, at no extra charge. This only added to the problems of the baked apple!