My younger Buff years

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nfd2004

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Atlas said:
82 & 85 were an interesting pair while in the same quarters. For a while they responded together 1st & 2nd due, or even third due. Other times one was held back in quarters for another box, & for a while they both were assigned to different boxes & would not respond together.

For a while, when The Bronx had three Squads ( # 1, #2, & #5) these units would rotate daily between different companies to try to give them a break.

Engines 512 (Engine 45) & Engine 513 (Engine 94), Ladder 712 (Ladder 31) were all used to give a break to the companies who's quartered that they responded from. After their tour of duty, they returned to their storage quarters & the crew when home until the next afternoon.
Click to expand...

  It's been awhile since this was posted by "Atlas". But for a moment, lets just add to this and remember, "we are talking NO computer aided dispatching". Just to get a feel of what it was like in those Fire Comminications Offices, lets just focus on the Bronx.

  Phones were ringing continueously. People reporting fires from rubbish to building fires. Smoke seen by some from blocks away calling it in. Each and every phone call had to be answered. In addition pull boxes were coming in from the several circuits across the room. Each one had to be counted.

  As "Atlas" said TCUs (Tactical Control Units) Eng 512, 513, and Lad 712, and they were activated from around 1500 hrs to 2400 hrs.

  Squad 2, normally quartered at Engine 73/Ladder 42 would change firehouses for the night shift. One night w/E73, the next w/E82, the next w/E85. They would only respond to Working Fires after 0100 hrs.

  After 1500 hrs (?) Adaptive Response went into effect. Send 2 Engines, 1 Truck, and a chief, unless numerous calls were recieved. Then it would be filled out with 3 Engines/2 Trucks, Rescue etc.

  DRBs were boxes that a chief was not required to respond to.

  There were Interchange Companies. Engine 82 would interchange with Queens Engines 295 or 297. Just to use this 82/31 firehouse as an example, some nights there would be Engine 295 acting 82, Ladder 31, TCU 712 that was an extra ladder in service from 1500 hrs to 2400 hrs. There was Squad 2 that responded on runs as an Engine company, and as a Squad for All hands, but only on All Hands after 0100 hrs. And prior to the Tin House there was Engine 85 with them along with the Battalion.

  I have no idea how those fire dispatchers did it. With NO computer aided dispatching, these fire dispatchers handle a staggering amount of fires and incidents. In addition, as I tried to point out there were many variables that came into play. And as somebody mentioned earlier, even chiefs on the scene of fires had no idea who was coming in. A fire in one building might get Eng 295, TCU 512, Squad 2, TCU 712 and Ladder 31. A fire in that same building the next night might get Engine 85, TCU 513, Engine 297, Ladder 48, and Ladder 42. And the third night, another group of completely different companies. All for the same building on three different nights.

  You got to wonder, how did those dispatchers ever do it. If you were one of them, you had to be "The Best Fire dispatchers in the World". "What a Great job you did" !!!
 
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mack

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The War Years audio tape series:

FDNY War Years Audio
FDNY War Years Audio-5

(entire series available)

are excellent examples of what Willy D describes.  It was amazing to listen to dispatchers handling 3 or 4 working fires simultaneously.  They often had no assets to send when requested and had to make immediate judgments to redirect responding units or determine which incident should get the only available truck or rescue or chief.  Dispatchers operated without computers and also provided directions to fire locations, warned units of possible other units approaching intersections, coordinated relief of units operating at multiples, advised units of blocked roadways, provided weather warnings, etc. 
 
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STAjo

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mack said:
The War Years audio tape series ( http://www.militaryfamily.org/resources/links/military-statistics-and-research.html) are excellent examples of what Willy D describes.  It was amazing to listen to dispatchers handling 3 or 4 working fires simultaneously.  They often had no assets to send when requested and had to make immediate judgments to redirect responding units or determine which incident should get the only available truck or rescue or chief.  Dispatchers operated without computers and also provided directions to fire locations, warned units of possible other units approaching intersections, coordinated relief of units operating at multiples, advised units of blocked roadways, provided weather warnings, etc.
Click to expand...

  Uh, Mack... is that the Correct Link ya' wanted to Post for War Years Audio... ???  :-\
 
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STAjo

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mack

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Thanks for the link, GMan: http://www.beyondthefireline.com/gallery/fdny-classic-photos/#/gallery/fdny-classic-photos/fdny-riot-platoons-f/

My guess is that picture is about 1966-1968.  For civil disturbances, FDNY staged response teams (chief/engine/truck/engine/PD) and set up a mobile dispatch site at selected firehouses like E 58/L 26. NYC had its share of disturbances in the later 60's into the 70's.  Pre-selected firehouses were selected as staging locations.  There were firehouses in Manhattan, Bronx, Bklyn and Queens (sorry none on SI).  Firehouse criteria included: proximity to anticipated neighborhoods with potential for disturbances and high fire incidence; wide street for staging apparatus; ability to protect site; street access routes into and out of quarters  Size of firehouse was a factor, too.  Small single quarters had limited facilities to support the large numbers of personnel.  Firehouses would have maps, situation boards, magnetic unit tags - equipment to operate as a mobile dispatch center.  The companies in selected firehouses were trained to operate the command post and would go OOS when the command post became operational.  There were also additional engine companies trained to respond into the command post to be coordinators and and provide staging control duties.  A team of command post leaders was established to run the command post for senior chief in charge. They also had pre-training duties.  Command posts were established numerous times.  FDNY had Emergency Command Post Procedures to provide SOP.
 
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mack

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FDNY divil disturbance procedures followed procedures developed for brush fires in SI, or Richmond back in those days.

SI had terrible brush fire seasons in the 60s following the opening of the VN bridge and its rapid development.  E 164 became a staging areas for the South Shore on high brush fire days.  A command post was set up in quarters and the dispatcher notified the command post of the incident and location. The command post dispatched a team.  System worked well and was adapted for - riots/civil disturbances.

Picture of E 164 staging area:

image.png
 
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nfd2004

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"mack" or "G-man", maybe you can help me out. I am trying to remember some of the details of the riot plans. I think it was AUC 138 and it contained numerous pages. I believe that "macks" father was the B/C that wrote most of them up.

  As I remember there were about twenty firehouses assigned as Command Post Companies. I think the Bronx had three or four firehouses. I believe the quarters of Eng 46/Lad 27, and 92/44 were a part of it. Maybe 60/17, but I'm not sure of the other.

  In Manhattan, I think 35/14 and 37/40 were assigned. And the only firehouse in Brooklyn that I remember was 290/103.

  Anybody remember the other firehouses.

  Also each Fire Attack team (2 Engs, 1 Truck, one B/C and one NYPD car) was assigned a number. They were called Fire Control Teams (FCT). Eng 46 FCTs would be assigned numbers; "Team 146", "Team 246", "Team 346" etc. I think that's how they operated. They didn't operate during the Blackout of '77, but I do remember hearing the FCTs in operation one night before the Blackout.

  There were also multi unit drills using this set up. I think earlier on here it was "mack" that said "after the riots came the War Years" and that was true. 
 
6

69 METS

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nfd2004 said:
"mack" or "G-man", maybe you can help me out. I am trying to remember some of the details of the riot plans. I think it was AUC 138 and it contained numerous pages. I believe that "macks" father was the B/C that wrote most of them up.

  As I remember there were about twenty firehouses assigned as Command Post Companies. I think the Bronx had three or four firehouses. I believe the quarters of Eng 46/Lad 27, and 92/44 were a part of it. Maybe 60/17, but I'm not sure of the other.

  In Manhattan, I think 35/14 and 37/40 were assigned. And the only firehouse in Brooklyn that I remember was 290/103.

  Anybody remember the other firehouses.
Click to expand...

E 234 / Bn. 38's quarters on Bergen St. (Now qtrs. of R 2) was a command post.        
 
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nfd2004

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69 METS said:
nfd2004 said:
"mack" or "G-man", maybe you can help me out. I am trying to remember some of the details of the riot plans. I think it was AUC 138 and it contained numerous pages. I believe that "macks" father was the B/C that wrote most of them up.

  As I remember there were about twenty firehouses assigned as Command Post Companies. I think the Bronx had three or four firehouses. I believe the quarters of Eng 46/Lad 27, and 92/44 were a part of it. Maybe 60/17, but I'm not sure of the other.

  In Manhattan, I think 35/14 and 37/40 were assigned. And the only firehouse in Brooklyn that I remember was 290/103.

  Anybody remember the other firehouses.
Click to expand...

E 234 / Bn. 38's quarters on Bergen St. (Now qtrs. of R 2) was a command post.      
Click to expand...

  Thank you "69mets". So for the Command Post Companies here is the list so far:
      Manhattan - E35/L14, E37/L40
      Bronx - E46/L27, E92/L44, maybe E60/L17
      Brooklyn - R2 (former qtrs of E234/B38)

  By the way, I remember seeing an advertizement, in probably Fire Engineering Magazine of the 1970s, with Engine 234, then a Mack CF, backing into quarters on Bergen St. At the time, I cut that picture out and hung it on my bedroom wall in the house. I wish that I still had that picture.
 
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soda-acid

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If I remember correctly there were primary (I don't recall the exact terminology) Command Post houses such as 58/26 etc. and there were secondary Command Post houses. In the summer of'67 during the East Harlem riots the quarters of E.22/L.13 were used as a secondary Command Post.
 
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mack

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Soda-Acid is correct.  As I remember, there were Primary CPs which were perferred locations, and there were back-ups in case the primary CP was untenable.  The intent was to have a secure location to stage firefighting teams outside the disturbance area but close to each other.

E 58/L 26 was a Manhattan CP location.  GMan post shows E 58 CP operational -  http://www.beyondthefireline.com/gallery/fdny-classic-photos/#/gallery/fdny-classic-photos/fdny-riot-platoons-f/). E 58 and E 35 - maybe one was primary and other was secondary because they are close. 

I believe there was a CP to cover the Lower East Side (Alphabet City). Maybe E 15 or E 33.

I think Queens also had a CP - maybe Jamaica area.

There were also CP companies which had CP staffing duties.  These companies were used as manpower at the CPs.  E 89 was one of the CP companies.
 
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mack

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My father was a Captain in the late 60s.  He was on a team which planned and coordinated the CP operations.  Captain/Lieutenant/about 4 FFs.  They did write the draft AUC, trained companies involved with CP system, ran drills and were the core CP staff when a CP was actually set up.  They had station wagons staged at outlaying firehouses with CP equipment.

The team also rode with the Brooklyn and Manhattan Field Comm units on night tours. Daytime training, night tours with Field Comm. It was a summer-only detail - late 1960s to early 1970s. 

I did ride with the team during day training tours and nights at the Field Comm units.  A real problem was trying to train already-busy companies in CP operational procedures.  Training was constantly interrupted by units responding to boxes received. If an all-hands came in, team then went to fire. There were so many working fires.  The telegraph alarm system was still in service.  Bells all the time.             
 
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nfd2004

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Thank you very much for the information.

I remember reading that AUC. It was a well thought out plan and as I remember, it was well over 100 pages. Interesting to read that in those very busy years, it wasn't always possible to conduct a drill because those companies were just too busy with fire activity.

I certainly appreciated the photo of the Command Post Company (E58/L26) that G-man posted. The point mentioned of Primary and Secondary CPs explains that because 58/26 and 35/14 are not too far from each other.

Thanks "Mack" for the story you posted about your father. I remember you telling me he was involved in setting that up. From what I remember every detail was clearly covered. At the time there were many other city depts dealing with these riot conditions. And on a smaller scale, I thought all they would have to do is follow these procedures.

I wish that I could have met your father before he passed away. But he will be remembered. He will be remembered by many for his part as an FDNY War Years Firefighter and by a young firefighter/buff in Connecticut who was pretty impressed by the amount of work and planning that was put into that entire All Units Circular.

"Mack" I'll see you at the Get Together (10/18,19).
 
8

811

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[/quote]


  By the way, I remember seeing an advertizement, in probably Fire Engineering Magazine of the 1970s, with Engine 234, then a Mack CF, backing into quarters on Bergen St. At the time, I cut that picture out and hung it on my bedroom wall in the house. I wish that I still had that picture.
[/quote]

The AD with E234's CF marked the 1000th Mack delivered to FDNY
 
68jk09

68jk09

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The picture mentioned above showing 234 backing into the Bergen St qtrs also was on a calendar....possibly put out by the Mack Co i dont remember but it did hang in 234s Office in the new qtrs for awhile when i was a Covering LT.
 
6

69 METS

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I was fortunate enough to ride on that rig frequently when I buffed with 234 prior to my getting on the job. I was appointed to 234 in 1981, at that time we had a 1980 ALF. 
 
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nfd2004

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  Between 1970 - 1980 in the Bronx, 7 different censes tracks lost more than 97 % of their buildings to fires and abondoment.

  ALSO: another 44 tracks out of 229 in the Bronx lost more than 50 %.

  It is also reported that the Brooklyn neighborhoods of Bedford-Stuyvesant, Brownsville, Bushwick, and the Manhattan neighborhoods of the Lower East Side and Harlem had similiar losses.
 
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