Squad 41 First Due Area

[fdny1075k]

I have always wondered about the size of Squad 41's first due area in the South Bronx. It seems they have a very small first in district as compared to the other 6 Squads, which all have larger first due areas. 41 is very close to both Engine 71/Ladder 55 and Engine 60/Tower Ladder 17 (within 6-7 blocks of each, north and south).

Does anyone know roughly the size of Squad 41's first due area and/or the boxes they are first due to?

Also, did 41 lose or gain any boxes when 71/55 moved from Park Ave. to Melrose Ave. in 1989?

 

[Bxboro]

Could be wrong but maybe 30 or so first due boxes.  Not sure of area but 1st due area is not that big.

 

[Bxboro]

First due I believe is from north to south....152 st to 148 st and east to west....St. Anns ave to approx Harlem River.

 

[Bxboro]

They currently have many of 60 Engines first due boxes though because of renovations at 60/17 Qtrs. Probably really busy for 41 currently until 60 is back home.

 

[fdny1075k]

Thanks for the info, Bxboro. I thought their first due was pretty small.

 

[baileyjeff]

When is 60/17 going home?

 

[fdny1075k]

To get an idea of how big 41's first due is, below is a list of all of Squad 41's first due boxes (the list might be pre-BARB). There's only 43:

Box 2208: Walton & 146th St.
Box 2218: 3rd Ave. & 148th St.
Box 2219: Morris Ave. & 148th St.
Box 2220: Exterior St. & 149th St.
Box 2221: Gerard Ave. & 149th St.
Box 2223: Grand Concourse & 149th St.
Box 2224: Park Ave. & 149th St.
Box 2225: Courtland Ave. & 149th St.
Box 2226: Bergen Ave. & 149th St.
Box 2227: Brook Ave. & 149th St.
Box 2228: St. Ann's Ave. & 149th St.
Box 2230: Bergen Ave. & 148th St.
Box 2238: Melrose Ave. & 150th St.
Box 2239: Morris Ave. & 150th St.
Box 2241: Walton & 150th St.
Box 2242: River Ave. & 150th St.
Box 2243: Cromwell Ave. & Exterior St.
Box 2244: Exterior St. bet. 150th St. & 151st St.
Box 2245: River Ave. & 151st St.
Box 2246: Griffin Pl. & 150th St.
Box 2247: Grand Concourse & 151st St.
Box 2248: Park Ave. & 151st St.
Box 2249: Courtland Ave. & 151st St.
Box 2251: 3rd Ave. & 151st St.
Box 2252: Brook Ave. & Westchester Ave.
Box 2266: Gerard Ave. & 153rd St.
Box 2269: Cromwell Ave. bet. 151st St. & 153rd St.
Box 2271: Cromwell Ave. & 153rd St.
Box 2272: Walton Ave. & 153rd St.
Box 2273: Grand Concourse & 153rd St.
Box 2274: Concourse Village E. & 153rd St.
Box 2275: Courtland Ave. & 153rd St.
Box 2278: St. Ann's Ave. & Rae St.
Box 8525: Morris Ave. & 148th St. (P.S. 18)
Box 8526: Courtland Ave. & 148th St. (Board of Ed. Offices)
Box 8527: Morris Ave. & 149th St. (Lincoln Hosp. Security)
Box 8528: Morris Ave. & 149th St. (Lincoln Hosp. Telephone Switch Rm.)
Box 8531: St. Ann's Ave. & 149th St. (I.S. 162)
Box 8534: River Ave. & 151st St. (Bronx Detention Center)
Box 8535: 333 E. 151st St. (A.E. Smith H.S.)
Box 8543: Grand Concourse & 153rd St. (Cardinal Hayes H.S.)
Box 8544: 335 E. 152nd St. (P.S. 1)
Box 8545: St. Ann's Ave. & Rae St. (P.S. 38)

 

[scoobyd]

And for years E41 & E41-2 were in the top 10. 

 

[guitarman314]

And for years E41 & E41-2 were in the top 10.

  Before E71/L55 were moved closer they had a few more 1st due boxes to the north and east. The reason E41 & 41-2 were so high was they also ran 2nd and 3rd due to many of the "hottest" boxes in the 14th, 17th, 26th & 55th Battalions.

 

[turk132]

And for years E41 & E41-2 were in the top 10.

  Before E71/L55 were moved closer they had a few more 1st due boxes to the north and east. The reason E41 & 41-2 were so high was they also ran 2nd and 3rd due to many of the "hottest" boxes in the 14th, 17th, 26th & 55th Battalions.

I believe they also ran 3rd due boxes into Harlem.

 

[3511]

In the post WWII era, the FDNY did a study which resulted in the closing of many companies. Most were in lower Manhattan and downtown Brooklyn. There were some firehouses within a few blocks of each other (see E's 7 and 29).

E41, due to its proximity to E71, was on the recommended list. If I remember correctly (it's been a few years since I read it and the memory is sktchy), it also recommended a new house for E71 midway between 41 and 71. Nothing was done.

In 1957, E72 disbanded in Manhattan and moved up to become E41-2 as Mott Haven was getting busy but 41-2 closed after just a year. (41-2 ran with E72 's  '54 Mack L model open cab 1000gpm, the only one of that model to be assigned front line in the Bronx. )

41-2 opened again in 1968 but closed in '74. During that time the RAND Study again recommended 41 be closed and 71 move further south. That finally happened in 1989 and 41 closed for a year but was reopened a year later. I believe there was again pressure to close it in the 90's but making it a squad in '99 gave it new life.

So that's why 41 is so close to 71 and has few 1st due boxes.

 

[fdny1075k]

In the post WWII era, the FDNY did a study which resulted in the closing of many companies. Most were in lower Manhattan and downtown Brooklyn. There were some firehouses within a few blocks of each other (see E's 7 and 29).

E41, due to its proximity to E71, was on the recommended list. If I remember correctly (it's been a few years since I read it and the memory is sktchy), it also recommended a new house for E71 midway between 41 and 71. Nothing was done.

In 1957, E72 disbanded in Manhattan and moved up to become E41-2 as Mott Haven was getting busy but 41-2 closed after just a year. (41-2 ran with E72 's  '54 Mack L model open cab 1000gpm, the only one of that model to be assigned front line in the Bronx. )

41-2 opened again in 1968 but closed in '74. During that time the RAND Study again recommended 41 be closed and 71 move further south. That finally happened in 1989 and 41 closed for a year but was reopened a year later. I believe there was again pressure to close it in the 90's but making it a squad in '99 gave it new life.

So that's why 41 is so close to 71 and has few 1st due boxes.

Thanks for the info, 3511. Makes sense why 41 has such a small first due area.

As you mentioned above, in the 15-20 years following WWII, a number of companies were closed permanently, all Engines, in Downtown Manhattan and Brooklyn.

Engine 11 - 437 E. Houston St., Lower East Side - Disbanded Oct. 15, 1957 to form Engine 91-2 (Close to current quarters E28/L11)
Engine 12 - 261 William St., Civic Center - Disbanded Oct. 1, 1959 (Very close to quarters of E32, also disbanded, now E6)
Engine 19 - 355 W. 25th St., Chelsea - Disbanded Jan. 1, 1947 (Close to E3 and E1)
Engine 20 - 243 Lafayette St., SoHo - Disbanded Jan. 1, 1947 (Close to E13 and E55)
Engine 25 - 342 E. 5th St., Alphabet City - Disbanded Jan. 1, 1947 (Close to E28 and E33)
Engine 29 - 160 Chambers St., Tribeca - Disbanded Jan. 1, 1947 (Close to E7 and E27)
Engine 30 - 278 Spring St., Greenwich Village/Tribeca - Disbanded Apr. 1, 1959 - Currently the Fire Museum (Close to E13, E24, and E27)
Engine 56 - 120 W. 83rd St., Upper West Side (Quarters of Engine 74) - Disbanded May 1, 1960 (Close to E74)
Engine 72 - 22 E. 12th St., Union Square - Disbanded Oct. 15, 1957 to form Engine 41-2 (Close to E14, E18, and E5)
Engine 213 - 137 Powers St., Williamsburg - Disbanded Dec. 1, 1959 (Close to E216, E206, and E229)
Engine 327 - 2731 E. 23rd St., Brooklyn - Disbanded Jul. 16, 1960 (Close to E246)

 

[68jk09]

In regard to the mention of ENG*11 being closed Becoming ENG*91-2.....i know a fellow who is in his '90s now who was a FF in 11 back then...he told me that at the time they were moved that demo of tenements for many of the project area's near  qtrs had been completed & other than the FH there were few bldgs left......when 91-2 closed he went to 294 for several years then when 294 closed he went to 285 for a few more...he is still enjoying Retirement in Fla. 

 

[fdny1075k]

In regard to the mention of ENG*11 being closed Becoming ENG*91-2.....i know a fellow who is in his '90s now who was a FF in 11 back then...he told me that at the time they were moved that demo of tenements for many of the project area's near  qtrs had been completed & other than the FH there were few bldgs left......when 91-2 closed he went to 294 for several years then when 294 closed he went to 285 for a few more...he is still enjoying Retirement in Fla.

Wow, God bless him. Thanks for sharing, Chief.

 

[guitarman314]

In the post WWII era, the FDNY did a study which resulted in the closing of many companies. Most were in lower Manhattan and downtown Brooklyn. There were some firehouses within a few blocks of each other (see E's 7 and 29).

E41, due to its proximity to E71, was on the recommended list. If I remember correctly (it's been a few years since I read it and the memory is sktchy), it also recommended a new house for E71 midway between 41 and 71. Nothing was done.

In 1957, E72 disbanded in Manhattan and moved up to become E41-2 as Mott Haven was getting busy but 41-2 closed after just a year. (41-2 ran with E72 's  '54 Mack L model open cab 1000gpm, the only one of that model to be assigned front line in the Bronx. )

41-2 opened again in 1968 but closed in '74. During that time the RAND Study again recommended 41 be closed and 71 move further south. That finally happened in 1989 and 41 closed for a year but was reopened a year later. I believe there was again pressure to close it in the 90's but making it a squad in '99 gave it new life.

So that's why 41 is so close to 71 and has few 1st due boxes.

Thanks for the info, 3511. Makes sense why 41 has such a small first due area.

As you mentioned above, in the 15-20 years following WWII, a number of companies were closed permanently, all Engines, in Downtown Manhattan and Brooklyn.

Engine 11 - 437 E. Houston St., Lower East Side - Disbanded Oct. 15, 1957 to form Engine 91-2 (Close to current quarters E28/L11)
Engine 12 - 261 William St., Civic Center - Disbanded Oct. 1, 1959 (Very close to quarters of E32, also disbanded, now E6)
Engine 19 - 355 W. 25th St., Chelsea - Disbanded Jan. 1, 1947 (Close to E3 and E1)
Engine 20 - 243 Lafayette St., SoHo - Disbanded Jan. 1, 1947 (Close to E13 and E55)
Engine 25 - 342 E. 5th St., Alphabet City - Disbanded Jan. 1, 1947 (Close to E28 and E33)
Engine 29 - 160 Chambers St., Tribeca - Disbanded Jan. 1, 1947 (Close to E7 and E27)
Engine 30 - 278 Spring St., Greenwich Village/Tribeca - Disbanded Apr. 1, 1959 - Currently the Fire Museum (Close to E13, E24, and E27)
Engine 56 - 120 W. 83rd St., Upper West Side (Quarters of Engine 74) - Disbanded May 1, 1960 (Close to E74)
Engine 72 - 22 E. 12th St., Union Square - Disbanded Oct. 15, 1957 to form Engine 41-2 (Close to E14, E18, and E5)
Engine 213 - 137 Powers St., Williamsburg - Disbanded Dec. 1, 1959 (Close to E216, E206, and E229)
Engine 327 - 2731 E. 23rd St., Brooklyn - Disbanded Jul. 16, 1960 (Close to E246)

  Re E11: Funny thing is that there was a "What's New" posting in an early 1950's WNYF (I'll have to look it up when I get home) stating that a new firehouse for E11/L11 (ELEVEN HOUSE?) was proposed for a site just 2 blocks from E11's 437 E. Houston St. quarters at 222 E. 2nd St. Strangely, E11 was disbanded in 1957 and the new firehouse opened 2 years later in 1959 with E28 moving 9 blocks south from 604 E. 11th St. 

 

[fdhistorian]

Although today?s Squads have more clearly defined specialty functions within SOC, historically the Squads have served as interim measures to keep firehouses open and to supplement Engines and Ladders in their duties.

The original Squads were WWII wartime manpower units.  They were created from Engine companies.  Squad 22 came from Engine 20 and Squad 24 was from Engine 204.  Both Engine companies were ultimately disbanded permanently.  (Not sure about Squad 21)

Another commonality among Squads was that they often came from Engines that were surrounded by other close by Engines, suggesting that these Engines were targets for closure based on the proximity of other Engines.

The 1955 Squads (1,2,3,4) do not appear to have been created from other companies.  The 1959-1961 Squads (5,6,7,8,9) were former Engine companies.  These Squads were re-purposed as new Engine or Ladder companies when they were closed.

Some Squads were assigned to neighborhood firehouses that would otherwise have been closed.  Politics and community pressure would have been factors.

There is an interesting pattern of similarities among the Squads.  You will have to decide if it reflects a historical trend.

1943-1945 Squad 21 ? manpower unit WWII

1944-1945 Squad 22 ? manpower unit WWII, formed from Engine 20, centrally located firehouse, Engine 20 later disbanded.

1943-1945 Squad 24 ? manpower unit WWII, formed from Engine 204, centrally located firehouse, Engine 204 later disbanded

1955-1976  Squad 1 ? manpower unit ? closed for budgetary reasons

1955-1976 Squad 2 ? manpower unit ? closed for budgetary reasons

1955-1976 Squad 3 ? manpower unit ? closed for budgetary reasons

1955-1976 Squad 4 ? manpower unit ? closed for budgetary reasons

1959-1976 Squad 5 ? manpower unit ? formed from Engine 30, centrally located Engine house closed

1959-1972 Squad 6 ? manpower unit ? formed from Engine 12, centrally located Engine house closed, Squad 6 re-purposed as new Ladder 59

1959-1966 Squad 7 ? manpower unit ? formed from Engine 213, centrally located Engine house closed, Squad 7 re-purposed as new Engine 232

1960-1966 Squad 8 ? manpower unit ? formed from Engine 56, centrally located Engine house, kept open by moving Engine 74, Squad 8 re-purposed as new Ladder 174

1961-1967 Squad 9 ? manpower unit ? formed from Engine 296, centrally located Engine house closed, Squad 9 re-purposed as new Engine 85.

1977 Squad 1 ? special duties unit ? formed from Engine 269, centrally located Engine house kept open

1998 Utility Unit ? special duties unit ? formed from Engine 212, centrally located Engine house kept open but eventually closed

1998 Squad 18 ? special duties unit, formed from Engine 18, centrally located firehouse

1998 Squad 41 ? special duties unit, formed from Engine 41, centrally located firehouse kept open, Engine company had been disbanded in 1989

1998 Squad 61 ? special duties unit, formed from Engine 61, centrally located firehouse

1998 Squad 252 ? special duties unit, formed from Engine 252, centrally located firehouse, Engine company had been targeted for closure in 2003

1998 Squad 270 ? special duties unit, formed from Engine 270, centrally located firehouse

1998 Squad 288 ? special duties unit, formed from Engine 288, centrally located firehouse

Are there similarities?  Or are these just coincidences?  It is interesting that of the companies closed in ?fdny1075k?s list, many became 2nd section Engines or Squads. 

Engine 11 became Engine 91-2
Engine 12 became Squad 6
Engine 30 became Squad 5
Engine 56 became Squad 8
Engine 72 became Engine 41-2
Engine 213 became Squad 7
Engine 296 became Squad 9
Ladder 85 was formed within 30 days of Engine 327?s closure but that may be unrelated.

The other thread discussion about Engine/Squad 165 might look for similarities to other Squads.  Is 165 centrally located?  Has it been targeted for closure?  Is it a politically/community active neighborhood?  It may need a reason like that before it becomes a Squad, based on the past.

 

[guitarman314]

Although today?s Squads have more clearly defined specialty functions within SOC, historically the Squads have served as interim measures to keep firehouses open and to supplement Engines and Ladders in their duties.

The original Squads were WWII wartime manpower units.  They were created from Engine companies.  Squad 22 came from Engine 20 and Squad 24 was from Engine 204.  Both Engine companies were ultimately disbanded permanently.  (Not sure about Squad 21)

Another commonality among Squads was that they often came from Engines that were surrounded by other close by Engines, suggesting that these Engines were targets for closure based on the proximity of other Engines.

The 1955 Squads (1,2,3,4) do not appear to have been created from other companies.  The 1959-1961 Squads (5,6,7,8,9) were former Engine companies.  These Squads were re-purposed as new Engine or Ladder companies when they were closed.

Some Squads were assigned to neighborhood firehouses that would otherwise have been closed.  Politics and community pressure would have been factors.

There is an interesting pattern of similarities among the Squads.  You will have to decide if it reflects a historical trend.

1943-1945 Squad 21 ? manpower unit WWII

1944-1945 Squad 22 ? manpower unit WWII, formed from Engine 20, centrally located firehouse, Engine 20 later disbanded.

1943-1945 Squad 24 ? manpower unit WWII, formed from Engine 204, centrally located firehouse, Engine 204 later disbanded

1955-1976  Squad 1 ? manpower unit ? closed for budgetary reasons

1955-1976 Squad 2 ? manpower unit ? closed for budgetary reasons

1955-1976 Squad 3 ? manpower unit ? closed for budgetary reasons

1955-1976 Squad 4 ? manpower unit ? closed for budgetary reasons

1959-1976 Squad 5 ? manpower unit ? formed from Engine 30, centrally located Engine house closed

1959-1972 Squad 6 ? manpower unit ? formed from Engine 12, centrally located Engine house closed, Squad 6 re-purposed as new Ladder 59

1959-1966 Squad 7 ? manpower unit ? formed from Engine 213, centrally located Engine house closed, Squad 7 re-purposed as new Engine 232

1960-1966 Squad 8 ? manpower unit ? formed from Engine 56, centrally located Engine house, kept open by moving Engine 74, Squad 8 re-purposed as new Ladder 174

1961-1967 Squad 9 ? manpower unit ? formed from Engine 296, centrally located Engine house closed, Squad 9 re-purposed as new Engine 85.

1977 Squad 1 ? special duties unit ? formed from Engine 269, centrally located Engine house kept open

1998 Utility Unit ? special duties unit ? formed from Engine 212, centrally located Engine house kept open but eventually closed

1998 Squad 18 ? special duties unit, formed from Engine 18, centrally located firehouse

1998 Squad 41 ? special duties unit, formed from Engine 41, centrally located firehouse kept open, Engine company had been disbanded in 1989

1998 Squad 61 ? special duties unit, formed from Engine 61, centrally located firehouse

1998 Squad 252 ? special duties unit, formed from Engine 252, centrally located firehouse, Engine company had been targeted for closure in 2003

1998 Squad 270 ? special duties unit, formed from Engine 270, centrally located firehouse

1998 Squad 288 ? special duties unit, formed from Engine 288, centrally located firehouse

Are there similarities?  Or are these just coincidences?  It is interesting that of the companies closed in ?fdny1075k?s list, many became 2nd section Engines or Squads. 

Engine 11 became Engine 91-2
Engine 12 became Squad 6
Engine 30 became Squad 5
Engine 56 became Squad 8
Engine 72 became Engine 41-2
Engine 213 became Squad 7
Engine 296 became Squad 9
Ladder 85 was formed within 30 days of Engine 327?s closure but that may be unrelated.

The other thread discussion about Engine/Squad 165 might look for similarities to other Squads.  Is 165 centrally located?  Has it been targeted for closure?  Is it a politically/community active neighborhood?  It may need a reason like that before it becomes a Squad, based on the past.

  Thanks fdhistorian, I believe the part about being targeted for closure was the reason Sq. 18, Sq. 41, Sq. 61 and Sq. 252 were chosen. All you have to do is look at the 1970's "Hit Lists" and you can see E18 in there.  Sq. 61 is near E89 that was temporarily shut down from July 2-19, 1975. Sq. 252 is very close to E233/L176.

 

[manhattan]

RE:  ?The 1955 Squads (1,2,3,4) do not appear to have been created from other companies.  The 1959-1961 Squads (5,6,7,8,9) were former Engine companies.  These Squads were re-purposed as new Engine or Ladder companies when they were closed.? 

Something I?m not clear about:  Were the personnel assigned to the newly formed Squads taken as a group from the former Engine or Ladder companies or were they assigned from different, scattered companies?  Was any additional training involved?

 

[fdhistorian]

RE:  ?The 1955 Squads (1,2,3,4) do not appear to have been created from other companies.  The 1959-1961 Squads (5,6,7,8,9) were former Engine companies.  These Squads were re-purposed as new Engine or Ladder companies when they were closed.? 

Something I?m not clear about:  Were the personnel assigned to the newly formed Squads taken as a group from the former Engine or Ladder companies or were they assigned from different, scattered companies?  Was any additional training involved?

I don't know about personnel assignments or training.  For each of those companies, one company was disbanded and another was newly established on or nearly on the same date.  There was no net change in the total number of companies.  The loss of one kind of company was balanced by the establishment of another company.  "Re-purposed" may not be the correct word.  "Re-deployed" as in, for example, the closure of one engine in Manhattan was offset by the establishment of a squad in Manhattan, is probably a better way to describe it.  How it was done, transfer-wise, I don't know, but it would appear that there was no net loss (or gain) in personnel citywide.

 

[nfd2004]

Although unrelated to the FDNY but a very similar situation, when Hartford and New Haven, Ct closed two of their Engine Companies, two manpower/rescue companies opened up called Tac 1 and Tac 2 in each city.

  Today New Havens Tac 1 and Tac 2 have become Squad 1 and Squad 2, with very similar duties to todays FDNY Squad Companies. Hartford created their two Tac Units from Engine Companies. Later Hartfords Tac 2 was closed, and today, Hartfords Tac 1 is a heavy rescue similar to the FDNY rescues.

All were created with the closing of Engine Companies creating additional special duties for these companies.