snorkels vs tower ladders

[3511]

Looking at the photos of the multiple alarm in Chicago in the National section, I notice Chicago ladders 39 and 54 using tower ladders. As discussed in another thread, Chicago pioneered the use of snorkels. The FDNY rejected the articulated boom and introduced the straight stick tower ladder a few years later.
Anyone know why the tower ladder concept eventually won out over the snorkel?

 

[raybrag]

Easier to position.  You need a lot of room to maneuver a snorkel boom.  Just MHO.

 

[Bulldog]

I definitely agree with the point raised by Ray about the ability to position them.  I also think it's because that most tower ladders and a way to exit the basket in an emergency by way of a ladder on the mast whereas snorkels don't have this option.  Also from my experience the bucket of a tower ladder is more stable than that of a snorkel.

 

[fdny1075k]

Also, Chicago has not completely rejected the snorkel concept. While the tower ladder remains the dominant one of the two for the CFD, the Squad Companies still have the snorkel second pieces and there is also an older Seagrave reserve snorkel that will often be brought out to large fires where a snorkel is needed.

 

[Parkave32]

I agree with  the point that they are easier to positionTower Ladders also have a shorter turning radius. A snorkel would never be able to manuver on some of the streets of New York.

I remember talking with my father who buffed out of 41 truck during the 60's and up to the strike, and he said the discussions about the tower ladder among some the members at that time was it would never work. Change is not always easy to accept. I wonder how we would have survived the war years without the tower ladder.

 

[mack]

Guys - already at least 1 extensive thread on this site "Snorkels and FDNY"

http://nycfire.net/forums/index.php/topic,14309.0.html

By the way, FDNY did use a few articulated boom Squirts in the 70s.

 

[Atlas]

The survey conducted by FDNY before buying the first tower ladder indicated that the TL would cover more area of the fire building then the snorkel.
The over hang was another major issue for FDNY in trying to place them throughout the city. Years back remember if you had a 100 foot snorkel, the boom sections would be nearly 50 feet long.  There was no way to "hide" the footage not being used like you can with a TL. The TL rigs are shorter because of the additional sections in the boom.

 

[grumpy grizzly]

My personnal, not worth a whole lot opinion. Quinn was the "Snorkel King" would you go against him. Chicago does not have that many narrow streets  so they could use that boom on wide streets. Now with the 3 Squad Companies, a piece and a 55' unit you can use the 55' unit in a inaccessible place such as an alley. CFD has placed an order for 2 complete squad units. But MY OWN PERSONNAL opinion, I would rather have a TL than a snorkel unit in CFD. But CFD has rear mount TL's from many manufacturers. Pierce, E-One.  They need new units, running spares!

 

[68jk09]

I agree with  the point that they are easier to positionTower Ladders also have a shorter turning radius. A snorkel would never be able to manuver on some of the streets of New York.

I remember talking with my father who buffed out of 41 truck during the 60's and up to the strike, and he said the discussions about the tower ladder among some the members at that time was it would never work. Change is not always easy to accept. I wonder how we would have survived the war years without the tower ladder.

In  the early part of the War Years there were only a few TLs & everything still went out.

 

[Massfireman]

Lawrence MA, a city 30 miles north of Boston has run with a Snorkel since 1967. The first was a 75' Pitman Young and the latest an 85 on an E-One chassis. The streets are Narrow hilly and lined with 3 and 4 deckers as well as many mill buildings. The Snorkel has always served the city well, the articulating boom allowed the ladder company to be landed on the roof over power lines. It does take skill to properly operate the apparatus.

 

[Bulldog]

CFD has placed an order for 2 complete squad units.

I thought they had 3 (or maybe even 4) new squad units on order?

 

[grumpy grizzly]

Right now they do not know what they want to do. Original order was for 2 units with a possible add-on for 2 more, one for O'Hare. Now it is just 2, scrape together the 3 to make 1 and maybe a spare and nothing for O'hare.

 

[svd385]

The issue of snorkel vs. tower ladder is the snorkle / articulated boom Squirts is the amount of hose that has to be removed from the engine so that the base of the snorkel can be installed as well as the hydrolics needed to operate it.  Kind of like an after thought.

 

[3511]

Thanks guys, for all the great info. I can see where the guy in the snorkel bucket could feel mighty lonesome suspended over a burning building with no way to get down if the boom malfunctioned. Were there ever any incidents of this happening?
I missed the other thread. Imagine TL33 Trying to get out of their old quarterst under the Jerome ave el with a boom like some of those shown?
Griz, do I understand you to say that CFD is ordering more snorkels for their squads?

 

[grumpy grizzly]

Yes CFD has placed an order for 2 2unit companies. The maker begins with an "R" , I have not seen any drawings or plans.

 

[nfd2004]

Guys - already at least 1 extensive thread on this site "Snorkels and FDNY"

http://nycfire.net/forums/index.php/topic,14309.0.html

By the way, FDNY did use a few articulated boom Squirts in the 70s.

  In reply #7 of the thread that "mack" posts, I stated that my brother drove a Snorkel (Truck 5) in Bridgeport, Ct. He drove it for several years. It was a Ward LaFrance, maybe 1977. Not only was the front and back overhang an issue both getting though the streets and setting up, but in this case the firehouse was right next to a railroad over pass. The rig could not make a right hand turn leaving that firehouse because it would NOT fit under that railroad overpass. Instead it had to be driven 10-15 blocks around. One block over to the west of the firehouse, and Truck 5 was "Second Due".

  Today Bridgeport has a Tower Ladder in that firehouse. And I think that railroad overpass has been demolished. But before it was, the Tower Ladder was able to fit under it.

  I have a friend in Yonkers that I sometimes visit. I believe Yonkers FD has two tower ladders. From a fire dept stand point, some of the toughest streets I've ever seen to drive a piece of fire apparatus. Hills, narrow streets, narrow turns. I wouldn't want to have a few drinks in me trying to drive home in my car on a dark night. "R1....", you guys certainly impress me that you can get those rigs through.

 

 

[raybrag]

Rosenbauer is building the new squads. Blueprint here:

http://chicagoareafire.com/blog/2012/12/chicago-fire-department-orders-new-squad-units/

They'll be on the Commander chassis (photo from rosenbaueramerica.com):

 

[raybrag]

Willy:

That Bridgeport "snorkel" wasn't a Snorkel at all . . . it was a High Ranger articulating platform with a boom that took up a lot more space than the Pittman Snorkels did.  Pittman allowed High Ranger to use the term "snorkel" on their products, though.  Photo here by Glenn Duda.

 

[3511]

I think i chimed in on Bridgeport's Ladder 5 before. I swear the frame was bent and it looked like it crabwalked down the street. What does your brother say about that, NFD? While not technically a "snorkel" it is an articulated boom, vs the straight stick TL.

 

[nfd2004]

Willy:

That Bridgeport "snorkel" wasn't a Snorkel at all . . . it was a High Ranger articulating platform with a boom that took up a lot more space than the Pittman Snorkels did.  Pittman allowed High Ranger to use the term "snorkel" on their products, though.  Photo here by Glenn Duda.

"raybrag" yes that's the rig. Thanks for posting the picture.

"3511", in regards to my brother George operating that rig, he would tell me how diffucult it was to operate when setting up. Always had to be aware of the boom hitting poles, trees, wires etc. Not only keep an eye on the bucket, but also where it bends as it swung around. I know he also said the bucket used to "drift" with members operating in it.

  This was in the mid to late 70s. During the height of the FDNY War Years and the FDNY was having great success with their Tower Ladders. Him and I would buff the FDNY together, so he knew the pros and cons of each. He would always say to me, "Why didn't Bridgeport buy a Tower Ladder like NY".

  When that rig was in service, Bridgeport had it's own set of War Years going on, and most of those years, it was the busiest truck company in the city. That rig worked and put out a lot of fires. He operated it and I saw it operate. We both feel that the FDNY Tower Ladders were just a better type rig for city firefighting.

  I'm sure Chicago does very well using the snorkels. I've never seen them operate, so my opinion doesn't really count. It is only based on one rig that reminded some of us of a "Big Lime Green Crab" going down the street.