Changes coming to 911

[STAjo]

MeThinks: They've Just Begun... 

 

[mikeindabronx]

'Failed' 911 system delayed response to Staten Island convent fire, report says (with 911 call audio)



http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf/2014/05/failed_911_system_delayed_resp.html


http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/staten-island-convent-fire-911-calls-nuns-260165021.html

 

[memory master]

This is why operators should, scratch that, MUST be familiar with the boroughs. Each borough must have a communications center of it's own with staff that know that borough just as it was years ago. They didn't have these damn computers years ago. It was all in their heads where what was, streets, avenues, places, courts, drives, crescents and so on. This 911 system is a joke ridden with millions of dollars worth of b.s. and scandals.

 

[Bulldog]

That's a good point MM, the universal call takers have no idea about where anything is in any part of New York.  Under the old system not only were the dispatchers knowledgeable of everything within their area, streets, buildings, etc. but they were also very self-confident in their abilities.  These ECTs probably are lucky to find their way home from work in many cases!

 

[manhattan]

I've thought for many years that we should scrap the single-call, 911 system and institute what many other countries have done, separate numbers for each service: 811 = FD, 911 = PD, 011 = EMS (substitute any digits you'd like).  As far as dispatchers and others responsible for the system knowing their areas, in London (and other major cities) taxi drivers have to take a test which proves their detailed knowledge of the entire city, not just local areas.  If cab drivers in other cities can do it, why can't the City of New York hire dispatchers and call takers with similar qualifications?

A related point I want to raise concerns the fire a few weeks ago where several people died after a mistake in communications between FD and EMS.  After September 11 a lot of focus was on the utter failure of communications, particularly that FD and PD could not exchange information.  Millions (probably many millions) of dollars have since gone out of the City treasury consulting, studying and establishing new radio systems, yet FD?s Incident Commander at that fire was unable to communicate directly with EMS to determine if a bus had been dispatched and to get an ETA.  Had the IC been able to speak directly to EMS the delay would have been apparent much sooner and worked out between the IC and either the EMS dispatcher or available EMS units. 

After the last major blackout, I bought a handheld scanner for about $125 which can be programmed to receive 1,000 channels.  I?d appreciate hearing from anyone on this site who has knowledge of radios (mine is limited to how to turn it on and get the channel I want to hear) as to why these $125 radios couldn?t be modified to transmit so every member of the FDNY NYPD and EMS can contact every other member as necessary on the 1,000 channels available..

Thanks.

 

[tbendick]

The sad thing is that if you go into Google maps and type in 850 H the second address that auto fills is Staten island.  The CAD systems need Google!

Was at a building and found the fire alarm system decided to die during the inspection. Informed the staff that they had to make an official notification to the FDNY via the boro dispatcher.  When they gave the address the dispatcher said it was bad address and the street didn't exist.  The name of the street changed in 1983 from what I can find in research, but starfire uses the old street name, the people working there have no idea of what the old street name was.  I will had to send a note up the chain, or these people will end up on the news saying the name of the street and getting "Sorry we can't send help that doesn't exist"

 

[manhattan]

A-damn-stounding.

 

[STAjo]

O.K., so i just tried the Google Maps thing, 'cause i didn't think it could be That Simple...

it is Indeed; (as previously noted...), A-damn-stounding !

So NYC is at the Mercy of some fouled-up Computer System that can't even find a Valid Address Location easily found on Google Maps !?! 

 

[In2theJob]

I think another problem in this is the relay of extra info from the caller to Fire disp.  She kept stating 850 Hylan witch was the address of the school. She also kept saying that it was the convent behind the school and how to get there. It seems that the convent part of it didnt make it to Fire Disp as one of the other calls the nun says she can see the firemen and they went to the school.

I guess the convent does not have its own address since it is on the much larger property of the school

 

[Bulldog]

If cab drivers in other cities can do it, why can't the City of New York hire dispatchers and call takers with similar qualifications?

I personally think most of us would think that's a great idea and most of the old Fire Department Dispatchers could do that!  However with the way the courts are ruling these days I'm sure they would say it was discrimination against many people.  They would rule that underprivileged people didn't grow up with the ability to travel around town to learn all of the areas!

After the last major blackout, I bought a handheld scanner for about $125 which can be programmed to receive 1,000 channels.  I?d appreciate hearing from anyone on this site who has knowledge of radios (mine is limited to how to turn it on and get the channel I want to hear) as to why these $125 radios couldn?t be modified to transmit so every member of the FDNY NYPD and EMS can contact every other member as necessary on the 1,000 channels available..

The simple answer to your question is it's completely impossible!  Scanners have a very basic receiver system that is not extremely selective and how it receives and they have no transmit ability.  The ability to transmit requires a much more complex and expensive design and requires much more battery power.  Radios can certainly be built and actually are that can transmit on 1000 or more channels with proper programming.  However those radios are extremely expensive compared to the price you are talking about.  In addition with that many people trying to talk to each other nobody would be able to hear anything anybody was saying!  Even police officers in different precincts use different channels on a regular basis to avoid this problem, they only changeover when doing joint operations.  Same thing for the fire department in the different boroughs.

 

[memory master]

Bulldog..you probably hit the nail dead on about the courts today. Where did I go wrong. I rode the bus and the el to high school constantly looking out the windows at streets. I saved my allowance and bought a Hagstrom 5 borough atlas and listened to my old hand me down Lafayette "Monitor Radio." Each time a box went out I looked it up on my map. Every time I rode in the family car I looked at street signs. I learned Queens upside down and backwards. Had a basic knowledge of other boros. Where did I go wrong? If I had waited somebody would have handed everything to me, nah, not my style. I'm glad I'm not a kid anymore.

 

[Bulldog]

MM, you know the borough just like every dispatcher used to when the fire department has their own dispatch system!  That's exactly why they didn't need a computer to dispatch, they knew the variables that couldn't be programmed into a computer like special traffic situations, hills, road construction, etc.  With the new system the unified call takers really know how to say hello when they answer the phone and certainly can't speak comprehendible English in many cases!  If they had to take a test about the location of anything they would fail!  In reality they probably couldn't even get to it from work if they had to change their route because of a subway or street closure.  It's truly a shame what happened to the dispatch capabilities in New York City.  The recent incident at the Convent was just a tip of the iceberg of what's to come I'm afraid.

I don't live in New York City, never have but I concerning tell you that every place I've lived I knew the surrounding area like the back of my hand and when dispatched on a fire call didn't have to spend time looking up where it was and how to get there!

 

[BCR]

Something else I want to add that is somewhat related. GPS, it has made people lazy. Say your a cop, ems etc. You just type the address in and it sends you in some direction ( is it the quickest ? Who knows) The old days when you had free time you would pull out a map and study it ! How many people do you think do that now a days. I also think that with gps - which may not always be reliable, some bosses are ok with sending units or dispatchers to areas that they have no idea about because  they figure the gps will work. I have a good friend who drives an ambulance in a New England state, he was telling me not long ago that they have to bring there own personal gps. Without a gps he would be completely lost as he was telling me how regularly he is being sent to cover other parts of the state when other  garages are short or busy. I'm sure most have a story like mine, I was looking for a friends retirement party a few towns over, didn't know the area so I take my GPS, next thing you know the gps takes me into some neighbor hood and tells me to take a right, well that right was a drive way that turned into a dirt trail no bigger than a dirt bike could fit. So I had to turn around and just drive till the gps gave an alternative route which took about 5 minutes and another 15 minutes to get to the place, looking on a map if that road really existed I would have been there in 5 minutes. Can you imagine if that was an ambulance responding to a call ? Unfortunately I think these problems are more wide spread than NYC and we will be hearing about issues like this for a long time. I can't figure out why someone (government or private ) hasn't tasked google with integrating into an emergency dispatch / response system.

 

[FD347]

As our electronic devices become smarter, we become dumber and more dependant on them.

 

[CFDMarshal]

It always amazes me when I hear a routine call get fouled up by parties involved not listening but waiting to ask the next question! After the 4th time of hearing 850 Hylan Blvd but you get to us via Fingerboard and Columbia, I am screaming at the computer asking,"are you located in a building at the rear of 850 Hylan"? I'm sure the reply would have been yes! No one asked if not 850 where from 850 are you?

That is the end of my monday morning quarterback session!

 

[fdhistorian]

Doesn't the 911 system have Automatic Location Identification?

 

[memory master]

Doesn't the 911 system have Automatic Location Identification?

I believe that when using a cell phone the pin point location depends on the location of the tower that the signal comes off of. I went on numerous EMS calls and the person's exact location was not near the street location that the "locator" spewed out.

 

[FD347]

911 has had ANI-ALI since the mid-90's. More recent additions were Wireless Phase 1 (cell tower location) and Phase 2 (GPS location). ANI-ALI has been rendered nearly useless as most people use cell phones now. The Vesta phone system does have mapping to display whatever info (ANI-ALI, WP1, WP2) Verizon sends.

 

[grumpy grizzly]

As you know I work for a delivery company which is located in Chicago. Most of what I do is located within150 miles, but the majority is located within the six collar counties. For that I purchased a book of maps for that area. Look up the street, find the page and letter/number for location and there it is. Mark it with a hilliter and I am on my way. I have had problems with GPS, turn N instead of S, which is why I do not use it. At least once a week I get a call from dispatch to call another driver who cannot find a location. Call him and he says his GPS said to take Rt to X street but there is nothing there. But it is on my map! Back to work mid-June, everything coming along well!

 

[manhattan]

Welcome back, GG.  Hope you're doing well!